Comments
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RHP User
9 years ago
On the one hand, it sounds like common sense. But on the other, I question what place common sense has where Love is concerned.On The Fence with this one...
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RHP User
9 years ago
Saves the headaches if you do split up. If you don't split up then what's the problem? Just like having a will up to date. Things change. People change. Circumstances change. The idea of true love is great and all, but practicality also has it's place.
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RHP User
9 years ago
Thanks for a good topic for discussion. This is a matter people could really get their teeth into. These agreements are far more prevalent in the US than in Oz. From what I have learned, they can prove very difficult and costly to properly establish. By this I mean you would require highly specialised and experienced professional advice to create a legally binding prenuptial agreement. (This is not something that any Lawyer at all might properly set up for you). As might be expected, due to the various changes in circumstances throughout peoples' lives, many such agreements are successfully challenged in Court. In short, my reading on the subject indicated an individual would need to have some quite serious wealth to guard in order the expense of a properly established/legally binding agreement could be justified. I understand there are purely pragmatic reasons a person may cite for seeking a prenuptial agreement. However, aside from, and further to the legal and financial aspects to these forms of agreement, logically it must be reasonable to ask some questions as to the nature or quality of the relationship where marriage is proposed. Mere discussion of a prenuptial agreement may suggest a lack of trust in the character or motivation of your betrothed. Such discussion alone may stir up feelings of resentment where previously there had been none. Depending on a range of highly subjective factors, introduction of a prenuptial agreement just might destroy the relationship. For similarly subjective reasons, such end to a relationship might itself be considered either good or bad. (Bullet dodged). Individuals might be prompted to ask themselves why they wish to marry at all. A Marriage Certificate (Church issued or otherwise) will neither make nor break a well founded relationship. When you consider the practice/rites/rituals of marriage are recent (to the history of humanity), and were instituted as a means of legally binding a man to fiduciary responsibility for his progeny, and when you consider the myriad combinations and permutations of relationships which constitute "family" in the modern construct, it must be fair to ask the point of getting married at all. Who cares? What does it matter? The Law Courts (and the Dept of Human Services, Child Support Agency) are legally charged to hold a man and a woman financially liable for the costs of raising their kids*. A marriage certificate is not required for receipt of Childcare Benefit or Rebate*. A marriage certificate is not required for legal claims against the estates of deceased persons* etc etc etc. When push metaphorically comes to shove (as tends to occur at the end of the majority of marriages), most anything may be challenged in Court. So, in effect, a prenuptial agreement must be considered in the context: "For What It's Worth?"
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RHP User
9 years ago
Two of my colleagues were married to each other..not for long just a couple of years..before they married she bought a house..he left her for another woman,he got half of the house. Marriage originally was all about property .The wife was handed on from father to husband,it remains in traditional marriage ceremonies .."who gives this woman to this man". and she usually took a dowry with her A prenup seems to make sense to me,as most marriages fail and then the battles begin Q
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RHP User
9 years ago
This is a topic that I wrestle with. Divorced once after 28 years of marriage and assets were amicably halved. However now at my age if I was to remarry and then die before my wife ( most likely given average life expectancy) my kids would possibly get bugger all. That is a scenario that I wish to avoid. My understanding of australian law is that in the event of a death, the surviving partner has to be provided for under the will. eg, a surviving partner could not be kicked out of the house so that the kids get their inheritance. Pre-nup will not override this scenario.
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RHP User
9 years ago
I meant to add that the situation you described happened to my brother. She brought f all to the relationship, stayed 3 years and left with half the equity in the home. Again, I dont think a pre-nup would have changed the outcome. We need a lawyer to answer this question but pre-nups in australian law do not hold the same effect as what many of us perceive, based on what we read in the media.
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MsSuperFoxy
9 years ago
Which culture, religious beliefs and the people involved, I think. Me Foxy
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RHP User
9 years ago
Quoting 'ohtobeyoung' I meant to add that the situation you described happened to my brother. She brought f all to the relationship, stayed 3 years and left with half the equity in the home. Again, I dont think a pre-nup would have changed the outcome. We need a lawyer to answer this question but pre-nups in australian law do not hold the same effect as what many of us perceive, based on what we read in the media. Having gone through a divorce and property settlement recently it is clear to me things can get nasty.If I were to cohabitate with another in the future I would like to think my (and my children's) assets are protected if the relationship were to end. However, as mentioned above, my understanding is pre-nups do not hold much weight and can be challenged. If the dispute ends up in court a variety of factors are taken into account such as length of relationship, who had what going in, who contributed what during the relationship etc.... However my lawyer advised most settle before court due to the costs associated and ultimately saving years of your life waiting for the court system to hear your case. If an agreement before shit hits the fan would save that stress and arguing I am all for it.
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RHP User
9 years ago
in Australia they are known as a Binding Financial Agreements , however it should be noted that like any contract, it can be challenged in a Court of Law, so do not be under the illusion that should the relationship break irrevocably down, that your BFA will kick in and protect you. The other party (if they are prepared to spend the money) can challenge at any time the contracts validity and it can be over ruled after a hearing by a judge/magistrate The agreement should be drawn up be two independent lawyers/solicitors ideally practicing in Family Law - you can do it yourself or get a kit, but like a those self help will kits , if you make a mistake, it could cost you big time and pleading ignorance does not cut it, in a Court of Law BFA can apply to both married and de facto relationships and can even be drawn up and enforced after the relationship has broken down (scary) Questions to consider if you are thinking about entering into a BFA are: Have you reached an agreement about how you want to divide the assets after separationDo you have a reasonably good income earning capacity?Do you have children from a previous relationship?Are you a beneficiary of a trust of your parents?Are you likely to receive any significant gifts or inheritances in the future?Have you received any significant gifts from your parents?Do you own significant other assets?Do you own your own real estate?Have you been previously divorced or separated?Remember, although the word Binding is used, all contracts can be challenged at any times, I cannot stress this enough Uni, I know you live in WA so I'm assuming its you or a friend - note that the WA Family Law Act is not the same as the rest of Australia, so please make sure you investigate this matter in depth We have chatted privately before (ChiChi) so please feel free to PM if you wish for some guidance or advice. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to have one drawn up, completely necessary in this day and age and Q's story is reiterated in my office every day in some shape or form. Love dies. And I would definitely get it drawn up by the same lawyer that my former husband used in our divorce proceedings, yep that guy really knew how to screw one over ! I was so trusting and naïve then :-(
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Lovinit28andKC72
9 years ago
I wouldn't have a problem signing one, but I'm not a materialistic person. 💋
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RHP User
9 years ago
You don't drive a car without insurance, regardless of how much the driver is trusted, just saying ;)
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RHP User
9 years ago
So I was watching Suits and it came up.....got me thinking and was curious about others thoughts. I guess my main question is if you feel the need for a pre nup, why marry? The essence of it is you are preparing for failure.
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RHP User
9 years ago
It is preparing for a marriage to fail. There must be better, more positive, ways to begin a lifelong partnership than that, surely...
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RHP User
9 years ago
Well there's an easy answer to that and it's got to do with another legal issue. If you are in a long term relationship and one of you happen to end up on life support or major medical decisions need to be made - your life partner has no say in the decision. The closest family members are the ones who get that right. One of the main reasons same sex marriage should be legal in Australia. The way some get around this is to complete an Advance Health Directive - quite a morbid document going into great detail about what you do and don't want. Problem is each state is different. In Queensland for example a doctor can still legally go against the wishes of the patient with a directive in place - if it is considered good medical practice. As far as pre nups I think they are practical. Talking about your future responsibly. Just as when you're merging you should talk about kids, retirement, wills and health. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
9 years ago
Like it or not, a lot of them do fail. Having an agreement in place isn't saying that you expect it to fail, but it is preparing for something that may happen. Love and romance is great yes, but my days of wearing rose coloured glasses and thinking like a love struck, goo goo eyed schoolgirl that bad stuff never happens are certainly over. I've also seen the results of a failed partnership in which the woman contributed very little and after they split she made his life hell going after his assets and using their kid as leverage. He'd gone into it thinking she was The One only to have the rose coloured glasses ripped off when she ended up cheating on him then later leaving him for someone else. Nothing wrong with putting things in place just in case.
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RHP User
9 years ago
I can see the use of them, but also wonder if it creates a bad vibe for the marriage from the start. The one time Ive been through a divorce I took my immediate belongings (car, clothes, computer) and left the rest. Im not a materialistic person and didnt want the hassle. TBH I now see no reason at all to ever marry and have no intentions of doing so.
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RHP User
9 years ago
Agreed. Unfortunately, while the law is supposed to be unbiased and split things 50/50, but that is rarely the case unless the parties still get along, in which case there is little need for a court case in the first place. I have seen stories of men that been left with nothing, almost literally left homeless, despite their wealth before and during the partnership. I'm sure it's happened in reverse, but especially when children are involved, this can be one area where women might exercise an advantage. There is also the emotional toll that going through endless court processes takes on a person. One of my extended family members is still technically owed almost the price of a house from his former partner, 10 years on. However due to a disability, lack of available funds upfront, and general mental state, he knows (correctly) that the process to fight for what he is entitled to will be little short of soul destroying, so he has decided to walk away and try to start anew. In short, he has chosen mental health over his share of any estate. He still entertains some hope that one day his former partner will grant him at least some share out of good faith. Quoting 'SoftandCurious' Talking about your future responsibly. Just as when you're merging you should talk about kids, retirement, wills and health. - Posted from rhpmobile Exactly. And at a time when you can talk to each other directly and not through your respective lawyers. I would say a prenup is no more "preparing for a marriage failure" than a will is "preparing to die soon".
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RHP User
9 years ago
You're a good Man for being able to do that, I just couldn't after 30yrs of working and struggling. I too now have the same belief as you, I was never married, that made no difference legally, we had an agreement of 60/40% due to me paying 75% or more for everything. She reneged on that when we split, but my Solicitor did say I should have had it in writing? I'm very up for "extremely good friends with benefits" these days, monogamy, sleepovers, dinners, drinks, chats etc. But doubt I could go thru it all again if it went wrong. It would have to be a "very special" kind of lady to convince me to go in together in something. Cheers Paul.
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RHP User
9 years ago
Yes, I think your friend has been wise, it all but killed me, I only "fired, when fired upon", but I took it up to her in court, because she agreed on 45% after we split and then jumped me in court for 75% & my Super when I proved that I had a loan for enough to pay the original 45%. 18mths later, she settled out of court for $3K less than the offer we shook on. She would have orginally had $285K cash for a house deposit 5mths after we agreed, I had already paid $3K towards her rent etc. By the time added up 18mths extra rent, her legal fees, money she had "blown" trying to empty her bank acc, which failed in court, she ended up with $240K. She is now a "sad" "repentant, regretful woman". She lost me, "the love of her life", by being complacent in our relationship & trying to "do me in" in court. Bad saddest by far was losing our only Son recently in a car accident. His mental health contributed to his death, I lost 98% of my own family & friends, due to information, e-mails etc being circulated to "gain sympathy", members of my own family rang me & "advised", "pleaded" & "begged" me just to "pay up". My Son heard & saw all of that, it took a massive toll on him, we only really reconnected 15mths before he died. Mothers, please be aware of what you may be doing to your Kid's & their Dad's for the bitter/sweet taste of "revenge". Cheers Paul.
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