F59
Suicide Vs Euthanasia
March 08 2014
Comments
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RHP User
12 years ago
I'm not sure these two subjects should be linked together, suicide can in some circumstances be self administered euthanasia but other than that they're chalk and cheese.I too have been touched many times by suicide and seen and felt the repercussions of it.How could they put their families through that you ask, I can't answer for any of them but I can guess what they may or may not have felt at the time. Some I think could have been wallowing in self sympathy, others may have been driven to the depths of despair, while another group could simply have a had brain fart or rush of blood to the head. They all chose a permanent solution to what may well have been a temporary problem. Suicide is much much more than just being depressed it's about running out of options and it's about no longer being able to live in a particular way.Please forgive me if I hold (in general) suicide practitioners in contempt their selfishness has caused a lot of people a lot of pain, guilt, anguish and a host of other negative emotions. Then there's that bloody issue of copy cat suicides this is apparent in youth suicides...the most tragic of them all to end it before they've even grown up.I would like to read Claire Harvey's article it may well offer some insight that I haven't considered. One thing I'll say for sure is that suicide is the hidden epidemic that gets swept under the carpet, it needs to be brought out in the open and have its stigma consigned to the scrap heap...that's enough for now.I look forward to other contributions here...especially informed opinions.
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MsSuperFoxy
12 years ago
I was sitting with my quite ill mum up at the hospital, not yesterday but the day before. And she said to me. "If I could have a green needle right now to put me out of my misery I would take it!" I said "Mum why would you say such a thing??" She said "I have lived a wonderful life, I just don't want to live this way any more, suffering". It's so hard as a child to hear a parent talk like that - it broke my little heart to hear. Driving home I thought about euthanasia and her. However if a choice was available and she was able to make that choice, with total support by medical staff, psychologists, health attorneys/guardians, advocates etc etc, I would do my very best to support her choice. Heartbreaking it would tear me up, but to see her not suffer any more and be in peace, then why not?? I believe in, and have empathy to people who are/do suffer, suffering to the point where it effects ones quality of life is not a healthy life nor way to live. I believe if one can not make a choice or decision then a board of people should be nominated just like QCAT or something like that. To assist those who can not make an formal decision. A decision is decided on their behalf, then yes I believe in that too. It would not be a simple process I would imagine. We euthanasia our pets who are in pain and suffering - is a choice ever offered to them? No, but as owners, we make decision based on their suffering/pain/aging process, don't we?? Foxy
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RHP User
12 years ago
To hear about your mum Foxxy......lovely post BTW xx Q
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MsSuperFoxy
12 years ago
Do others call this Euthanasia or assisted suicide??? I have been beside my mum too, when she was on life support. and it's not a nice thing to see or as a family member to go through. Machines to make her breathe and live and monitors to watch her heart and every move. It was an emotinal heart breaking time. As a family we were ready to turn of the machine. Then she came through. To see her now live the life she has makes me sad. I also believe in turning of life support when the time is right. As a family member you know. You just know . Bring back The Terminally Ill Act...I say!! Foxy
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RHP User
12 years ago
After watching my maternal grandfather slowly erode away from successive strokes and heart attacks my father said to me If I ever get like that - shoot me. Frankly that's a viewpoint I share. Is it more selfish to ask for death or coerce someone else to live when they're no longer interested? - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
12 years ago
My sister battled cancer for nearly 5 years, which she recently lost her battle a couple of weeks ago...Watching her go through years of pain, endless chemo, radiation, blood transfusions, the list goes on was absolutely draining the life out of her....In the last two months of her life, she became so frail, needing constant medical assistance to see her through each day, which was just as draining as the desease. One day we we talking and the subject of Euthanasia came up, which she commented, "A person should have the right to choose if the desire to end their life of suffering, instead of going through what I am." It's legal in Tasmania, if you are a resident. Why isn't this "choice" made nationally? Rest my case..
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gazpacho
12 years ago
It's unfair to make someone else do it for you, while you're in a situation where you can sort out your death by your own hand. The question then, concerns the quality of living. Lately we've been able to sustain people as living, even in circumstances where they are for all purposes, dead. That's useful while there is a chance of recovery... but does it achieve anything where there is none? I know family and friends don't want to pull the plug, but that, with good counselling, I think is a humane result. It's a challenging topic. Imagine those who, for reason of their ridiculous beliefs refuse medical intervention and die as a result of something curable? It's their choice. I have problems with them when they impose that choice on their children, for instance. Challenging issues. Hugs Gazpacho - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
12 years ago
felt their pain you cannot understand. Depression can be a debilitating illness, particularly when it's ongoing. People who take their own life are usually at a point where they do not have the capacity to rationalise the consequences of their actions. All they see is darkness and the thought of living like that forever becomes so unbearable that death is a far better option for them.
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RHP User
12 years ago
I have been on the different ends of the spectrum on this. When I gave birth to my daughter (her being very premature), the doctors gave us the stats - she would have a 5% chance of survival and if she does survive, would have an 85% chance of having a major disability - did we want her to be resuscitated? I opted to have her resuscitated and at the same time hoping that she turns up healthy and normal. We have just been officially "discharged" from hospital three months ago. Within a month of giving birth, me and my siblings were asked if we wanted to turn the machine off on my mom. She had cancer and by then her kidneys have failed. We collectively agreed that it was for the best to turn the machine off. I have always questioned what gave me the right to hold these wonderful peoples lives in my hand. Life is not fair, and it will never be. One decision I am very happy with with the result, the other, it still doesn't sit well with me and I cannot undo it - not that it would not have happened anyway. I just wish that I do not have to make these kind of decisions in my life ever again! On depression, it is a disease with no physical manifestation and quite easy to hide. It is great that it is getting much publicity nowadays. People should be aware. One stat I read, depression and anxiety kills more people in the world than wars. It is a very selfish disease and the people who suffer from it does not see past the hopelessness. I am not saying that the people who suffer through depression are selfish but rather, the disease makes them feel that there is no choice. "Are you ok day" should be everyday. Reminds us to ask friends and family and give them a chance to reach out.
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RHP User
12 years ago
I have no respect for a suicide, full stop. My feeling is that suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do. Here is where I'm misunderstood because, as long as they're struggling with their problems, they do have my sympathy. If I could, I would offer whatever support I could to any person who needs or wants it. Once they give up and take the easy way out there's really no need to care for them anymore. They're dead, their troubles are over and all have been inherited by those who loved them. It's those left behind that have my sympathy. The loved one's are left wondering, "Was it my fault?", "Was there something I could have done?"At the death of a loved one, there is always a sense of loss and grief. All this is compounded with feelings of guilt where suicide is concerned. Here in lies the cruelty of suicide.Suicide can often have a domino effect where a person shattered by the grief, loss, guilt and unable to understand it all simply follows suit. This can and does happen in multiple recurrences.Euthanasia is a completely different kettle of fish. If a person doesn't wish to live with the continuation of pain and continuing debilitation of their health and strength, any loved one can understand this and would not feel the anguish of guilt. If my quality of life were completely gone due to critical illness, with no cure or hope in sight, I might indeed welcome death and even seek to greet it prematurely.As a matter of fact, I do have a plan in place just in case such contingency should occur. It involves a hotel room, a half a dozen hookers and a bottle of sleeping pills...
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RHP User
12 years ago
That my choice to suicide is my business. I believe in right to death. There's an exceptional article on this somewhere - I'll post the source if I can find it as it articulates the reasons much better than I could. I think suicide can absolutely be a rational and valid decision in anyone's life, at any time they please. I don't believe people should need to stay alive if they don't want to just because it will upset other people. Yes, others might experience intense grief however that's their life and learning to overcome that is up to them. It's not my job to live in life FOR other people. I support euthanasia and suicide being legal. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'passion8_l' felt their pain you cannot understand. Depression can be a debilitating illness, particularly when it's ongoing. People who take their own life are usually at a point where they do not have the capacity to rationalise the consequences of their actions. All they see is darkness and the thought of living like that forever becomes so unbearable that death is a far better option for them. And the last thing that people who are having suicidal thoughts need, is ignorant bleatings about how suicide is so 'selfish'. As for euthanasia, of course it should be legal. This obsession with prolonging human life at all costs is ridiculous.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'lilmiss_fussy'I think suicide can absolutely be a rational and valid decision in anyone's life, at any time they please. I don't believe people should need to stay alive if they don't want to just because it will upset other people. Yes, others might experience intense grief however that's their life and learning to overcome that is up to them. It's not my job to live in life FOR other people. I support euthanasia and suicide being legal. Could not agree more. Thanks, lilmiss.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'jensman1903'Euthanasia is a completely different kettle of fish. If a person doesn't wish to live with the continuation of pain and continuing debilitation of their health and strength, any loved one can understand this and would not feel the anguish of guilt. If my quality of life were completely gone due to critical illness, with no cure or hope in sight, I might indeed welcome death and even seek to greet it prematurely.As a matter of fact, I do have a plan in place just in case such contingency should occur. It involves a hotel room, a half a dozen hookers and a bottle of sleeping pills... Many fail to understand that depression is a physical disease, just because the most obvious symptoms are of an emotional nature there are real and debilitating physical symptoms that accompany severe depression.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'jensman1903' My feeling is that suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do. My life is mine, and I'm the most important person in it. So if I were to continue to choose others over my own suffering, I would be doing myself a massive disservice. Remember that we are talking about incredible pain and hopelessness. I've known several people who committed suicide, and none of them made the decision lightly. They sought the help, but unfortunately needed more than was available. There can come a point where living for others just isn't an option anymore. Suicide is not a cowards' way out in my book. Sometimes it's the only way. And for the person who did it so her family wouldn't have to suffer with her anymore: the bravest.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'Luckdragon23' And the last thing that people who are having suicidal thoughts need, is ignorant bleatings about how suicide is so 'selfish'. They're 'ignorant bleatings' from my own experience. Had I let the disease win, I would have left behind then a beautiful 3 year old, a baby barely surviving in hospital and a mother that was just diagnosed with stage 4 cancer.
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RHP User
12 years ago
"Giving up and taking the easy way out" is one hell of a judgment you're making of other people's choices. There are many reasons someone might choose suicide. Take me for example. I don't believe life has any mystical value. We're born, we live, we die, the end. Therefore I believe choosing the moment my life ends is as valid as choosing what type of milk I like. My life is going to end one way or another, one day and the only real control I have over that is to decide whether to leave that up to chance or whether to take matters into my own hands, literally. Not because I'm suffering. Not because I'm taking the easy way out. Not because I want to hurt anyone. Just because it's my life and if I want to decide when it's time to end it, rather than letting a bus or a murderer or a disease or chronic old age decide, then so be it. A rational, informed choice. - Posted from rhpmobile
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gazpacho
12 years ago
Taking the easy way out... Lmfao. Hugs Gazpacho - Posted from rhpmobile
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MsSuperFoxy
12 years ago
Thank you Foxy
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RHP User
12 years ago
I am glad you commented Jensman because that is how I used to feel that is was a selfish act but you need to listen ...Dewata, lilMIss_Fussy, Luckdragon and Meander are trying to say what this article said and it was true that it was bigger.... that control that desire than anyhing else. Nothing anyone could have said or done could have saved them, sadness depression or as LilMiss_fussy so rightly said Just because it's my life and if I want to decide when it's time to end it, rather than letting a bus or a murderer or a disease or chronic old age decide, then so be it. A rational, informed choice. Euthanasia is what I see as very similar not just because you have a dibillitating disease but to put an end to lifes suffering, and people suffer in many ways. You dont have to change your opinion though. Would it make it any better if someone who were to plan their own demise left letters to their loved ones? Let them know it was nothing to do with them that it was their choice. I asked my cousin recently if she and her sister had prepared for her death (from cancer) she said not really they thought she would survive. I would have thought that my beautiful cousin would have left everylasting letters or something for her children. I am pleased by the variety of contributions. I will say that euthanasia was controversial only because often when people needed to make that decision it was too late they had forgotten or did not understand any longer or remember that that is what they wanted. Then who makes the choice when its left to late to make? So then is not suicide a form of euthanasian?
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RHP User
12 years ago
I haven't expressed any lack of sympathy for anyone suffering from deep depression and having thoughts of self harm, I've been there and I'm familiar with the pain. I've been in my car in the dead of night trying to decide whether to drive to a drop I know of, a peaceful place with a nice view and a fatal plunge, or whether to drive to the hospital and seek advice. Let me tell you, Gazpacho, at the time it would have been an easy thing to do but I simply couldn't do it to my children. Yes, Meander, it is your life but as it has an effect on so many other lives, I feel you have a responsibility to live it and not throw it away.So I went to the hospital, hoping to find someone who could help me understand why a certain someone was making my life hell. I needed an insight into the other person's demons because I was not coping. They had no answers for me, they just wanted to lock me up on suicide watch. After hours of argument, I was finally allowed to sign myself out against their "best advice".The counsellor that was supplied through work listened to my problems and immediately suggested sending me to hospital for suicide watch. My GP referred me to a psychiatrist who, after listening to me for one session recommended, ...yep, you guessed it, suicide watch. I couldn't make these people understand that I wouldn't do this. I could not do that kind of harm to the people I loved, all I wanted was advice as to how to deal with what was happening to me. Not long after this, being at the very end of my coping abilities, I turned violent and was arrested. Forty eight years as a peaceful man with no record and the police and courts wanted me imprisoned without any care for how I'd come to be in this mental state and what would happen to my family if I were sent away.No people, I have nothing but compassion for anyone in that kind of depth of despair but, as soon as they turn to the totally selfish act of suicide, my sympathy then belongs solely to those left behind trying to cope with the hurt and confusion inflicted on them by someone who was supposed to love them.If you don't care for my opinion, tough, it's my opinion, it's carefully considered and it has a great deal of experience behind it and dismissing it as "ignorant bleatings" or calling upon a deity that I really don't believe in is not going to sway me one little bit.Suicide is a crime and it should be because it does harm to others.Again, euthanasia is a different kettle of fish and has my full support.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'jensman1903' Yes, Meander, it is your life but as it has an effect on so many other lives, I feel you have a responsibility to live it and not throw it away. To who? It's not "throwing away" in my view. That sounds like life is being discarded without thought. No one has asked to be given life. Some love it, some manage it and some simply cannot not keep it, as hard as they try. As always I respect your opinion. I know some of the suffering you've seen, and you know the same of me.
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RHP User
12 years ago
In a death denying society,we don't even know how to be with the bereaved.....their pain touches our fear.Do we havea responsibility to others?I think we do but suicide is not always a rational choice that people make,mental suffering,despair .Sometimes suicide must seem to be the only way to end the unbearable but suicide is sometimes an opportunistic act,of the moment.......I have told my daughter that if I am not able to care for myself that she is not to do it....I will pop off to the nursing home where hopefully my mind will still be intact and I can manage the time of my passing.....I do not want my daughter to have to make that decision for me,it would just add to her pain.We are all different,we lead different lives and we will have different deaths...some of us will choose the time and manner of our passing,some of us will not.xx Q
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gazpacho
12 years ago
Thankfully you're overcoming your negative thoughts, Jensman. I can appreciate the sychologiser putting a person threatening to harm others or themselves on suicide watch in the first session. It kind of makes sense, yeah? The initial, second and subsequent sessions seem to assist one to make rational decisions. Remaining "functional" in the presence of triggers that aggravate severe depression is, I think, the objective of cognitive therapy. But nothing in the process is easy, right? I don't condone suicide, and I don't think anyone is saying that they do. Rather, they seem to be saying that they appreciate how people could make that difficult decision. I did laugh out loud when you said it's a crime. I can appreciate your thought process but is that really going to discourage anyone else thinking of suicide? I can also appreciate your thoughts that you should hang around for your kids. It's a positive thought. Unlike the woman who tried to drive into the ocean the other day, who conceived a plan from negative thoughts, but fortunately wasn't capable of making the plan rational enough to make it work. Hugs Gazpacho
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RHP User
12 years ago
Jensman you are looking at it from your experience which is very valid but what if? What if there are no children? The person has been alienated from their family? There would be no one directly affected by their demise? There whole life they had never know happiness? They had never felt love and expected they never would. The only glimmer of compassion was proved to be fake? They had tried every avenue and this seemed the only valid one? Their future was or never seemed to have any silver lining? You give reasons to live for what if they have none? Everyones lives and reasons are different I do not say their life has no merit or value but when a series of events leads to constant despair unhappiness that they may have even sought out the professional help like you and that had no help. Then they feel that by doing this they will put an end to what only seems to be an unforgiving future. I am not saying what you have commen ted has no merit I am glad you are facing your demons and have a destiny.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Jensman you are looking at it from your experience which is very valid but what if? What if there are no children? The person has been alienated from their family? There would be no one directly affected by their demise? There whole life they had never know happiness? They had never felt love and expected they never would. The only glimmer of compassion was proved to be fake? They had tried every avenue and this seemed the only valid one? Their future was or never seemed to have any silver lining? You give reasons to live for what if they have none? Everyones lives and reasons are different I do not say their life has no merit or value but when a series of events leads to constant despair unhappiness that they may have even sought out the professional help like you and that had no help. Then they feel that by doing this they will put an end to what only seems to be an unforgiving future. I am not saying what you have commen ted has no merit I am glad you are facing your demons and have a destiny.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'jensman1903' I haven't expressed any lack of sympathy for anyone suffering from deep depression and having thoughts of self harm, I've been there and I'm familiar with the pain. I've been in my car in the dead of night trying to decide whether to drive to a drop I know of, a peaceful place with a nice view and a fatal plunge, or whether to drive to the hospital and seek advice. Let me tell you, Gazpacho, at the time it would have been an easy thing to do but I simply couldn't do it to my children. Yes, Meander, it is your life but as it has an effect on so many other lives, I feel you have a responsibility to live it and not throw it away.So I went to the hospital, hoping to find someone who could help me understand why a certain someone was making my life hell. I needed an insight into the other person's demons because I was not coping. They had no answers for me, they just wanted to lock me up on suicide watch. After hours of argument, I was finally allowed to sign myself out against their "best advice".The counsellor that was supplied through work listened to my problems and immediately suggested sending me to hospital for suicide watch. My GP referred me to a psychiatrist who, after listening to me for one session recommended, ...yep, you guessed it, suicide watch. I couldn't make these people understand that I wouldn't do this. I could not do that kind of harm to the people I loved, all I wanted was advice as to how to deal with what was happening to me. Not long after this, being at the very end of my coping abilities, I turned violent and was arrested. Forty eight years as a peaceful man with no record and the police and courts wanted me imprisoned without any care for how I'd come to be in this mental state and what would happen to my family if I were sent away.No people, I have nothing but compassion for anyone in that kind of depth of despair but, as soon as they turn to the totally selfish act of suicide, my sympathy then belongs solely to those left behind trying to cope with the hurt and confusion inflicted on them by someone who was supposed to love them.If you don't care for my opinion, tough, it's my opinion, it's carefully considered and it has a great deal of experience behind it and dismissing it as "ignorant bleatings" or calling upon a deity that I really don't believe in is not going to sway me one little bit.Suicide is a crime and it should be because it does harm to others.Again, euthanasia is a different kettle of fish and has my full support. but the difference between you and the person who does follow through with suicide is that you were clearly not at the same level of hopelessness and still had the capacity to think your actions through. This is the reason why the hospital wanted to put you on suicide watch, because they are all too familiar with the people who have reached that point and crossed that line.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Each to their own opinion, of course. Equally, each to their own life (or death) choice. Freedom extends beyond the freedom to just have an opinion. It extends to the freedom to be the master of your own life. People cause immense suffering to others in untold ways. Ending a relationship. Cheating. Gambling the house away. Descending into addiction or crime. I've suffered terribly due to the actions of others and I'm acutely aware that their actions are ultimately their choice and their right, and my only responsibility is to how I choose to live my own life, including how I choose to deal with the suffering. I strongly disagree with your opinion, clearly, however my feathers are not ruffled in the slightest :) To be clear though, I don't think the right to suicide has anything to do with suffering or pain. I think the right to choose to end your life is valid at anytime, for any reason, even if that reason is simply 'because'. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
12 years ago
... but I do feel a need to argue against them strenuously none the less. Again, I have a deep compassion and empathy for a person contemplating suicide. I know how enticing oblivion can be and how repugnant life can be but I still firmly believe that a hard line should be held against self harm.When scrolling through the forum topics, how many of you open each and every one and how many of you pick and choose those that may pique your interest. Reading the comments so far, almost all the contributors have been touched by depression and/or suicide. You don't need to stretch the notion of probability to suspect that any RHP member who is in despair and trying to decide whether "to be or not to be" would read these comments. If you were to meet with these people face to face, being aware of their predicament, would you still tell them that it's their life and their choice and that suicide can actually be the brave thing to do or wood you fight tooth and nail to sway them from that course?I believe that most people, even those who take their own life, care about what people think of them when they are gone. If my comments seem harsh to you, let me assure you, they are deliberately so. I want the notion that suicide is cowardly firmly implanted in everyone's mind. I want them to be aware of the notion that their problems don't disappear with their death, they are transferred to those closest to them.Most people know that suicide is wrong and they will deliberate to try to rationalise it. If they say, "There is no hope", I would tell them that, while there is life, there is hope. If they say, "Everyone will be better off without me", I would tell them that their loved ones would be shattered possibly to the point that they are themselves right now. If they say, "Nobody loves me", I would say that even Hitler, Idi Amin and Ivan Milat had people who loved them. There is always someone who loves you even if you try to convince yourself otherwise to justify your intentions.Even the sliver thin hope that my severe attitude against suicide and my condemnation of it as cowardly, callous and cruel might make a person stop and think about the people around them is enough to make me stay my course. I wouldn't want to feel that I, in any way, became an enabler to someone taking their own life by taking the stance that it's alright and understandable.If there is someone reading this who is weighing up the value of their life, if you struggle on and work your way through it, you have my utmost respect. The power is in you to turn your life around. If you give in and inflict that pain on your family, I have no respect for you at all.I remain unrepentantly and vehemently against suicide.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Live long and prosper.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Hell yeah...that's my life. Outside of this bubbly personality is a little girl full of insecurities.No one knows your pain unless they live it with you.I have made several unsuccessful attempts at taking my life.Yes...it is selfish but there are times when you think it would be the best thing for your friends and family if you just weren't here anymore. I have my addictions that rule my life, that are out of my controland I don't mean drugs.... I have needs and feelings that I justcan't turn off.... they are in my constant thoughts. So for the scoffers and poo-pooers....live a day in my life!!!
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