F53
What are your views on termination/abortion?
February 05 2013
Comments
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RHP User
13 years ago
My body, my choice.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Pro-choice. And, at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, that's pro mother's choice.Do I know where the line should be drawn (17 weeks? 22 weeks? 32 weeks?)? No, I'm not entirely sure. But given I don't subscribe to religious "conception = life" views, I guess it'll always be grey.
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RHP User
13 years ago
...in my mind killing a newborn baby is morally equivalent to killing a baby inside the womb (abortion). Of course, we need to look at the development stage of the foetus first but after a certain point we should be affording the same 'personhood' rights to the foetus as we would a new born baby.I recall this notion led to outrage when a prominent university professor stated the same - that if we are ok with killing the unborn foetus then we should also be ok with killing a newborn - suggesting that both are the same in that they lack a sense of their own life and aspiration....but it is a complex issue and my view on it changes like the wind.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Pro-choice, at the end of the day it is the woman's final choice. And if the father is not prepared to put his life on hold for the child... He has no rights in this and his wishes should have no bearing on the matter. :) - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
But from another point of view when does it become ethical to terminate a prem baby (by this I mean not providing the required treatment to prolong life till recovery) Both my last children were born at 22 weeks and 25 weeks and required a lot of time in IC
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RHP User
13 years ago
choice for me.... I am not a dad so I am a bit biased. I also don't regret being procreationally challenged... When I was born in 1960 the population of the human race was around 3.1 billion... 7 Billion people eating drinking consuming and projected to get to 10 billion in 30 years.... Carbon is one of the smaller challenges facing us as we consume the freshwater aquifers, have our most productive soils washed out to sea in devastating floods... Oh dear I've depressed myself now.... Mike
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RHP User
13 years ago
What saddens and maddens me, is that even in the year 2013 – us women still have to jump thru hoops and justify our decisions in order to obtain safe abortions even in this country – don’t get me started, because this is one topic I can debate for hours. My body My choice – and I’m not saying that my decision excludes the father…not at all..but its my body so I dictate what happens to it. My story is full of irony I have terminated not once but twice – the second time within approx. 8 months of the first – I was 18 the first time and just about to start to college with ambitions of going onto med school. I was on the pill, I had been educated and was responsible for my body and took all necessary precautions. I fell pregnant..WTF ? Accusations flew that I had forgotten to take the pill – no not all…so we put that one down to being damn unlucky – discussion were held with both the father and both my parents but in all honesty I had at that time (in my head) planned my life out accordingly and children never were part of the picture, so yes I made the ultimate decision to terminate. Despite how I strongly felt, do not think for a moment that this is an easy decision even if you are so adamant (as I was that you are doing the rite thing) there are doubts and misgivings and a lots of “should I, shouldn’t I? - but thank god I had options and was offered, safe and legal abortion with unlimited counselling and support afterwards including the full support of my family. Approx. 8 months later it happened again – exactly the same scenario…WTF? But this time there was a reason and this was more than likely the cause of my first pregnancy (I had at that stage develop AML and this was rendering the contraception pill at the time as ineffective. It was thru having a blood test to confirm the pregnancy in order to have another termination that my AML was discovered). One I was diagnosed with AML – well the termination was going to go ahead no matter what as any subsequent treatment for my AML would more than likely result in a spontaneous abortion anyway The second time though was harder…..even though I knew I was doing the rite thing for me especially now with the battle of the AML looming, did not make it any easier…I questioned many issues then…regarding the second pregnancy and the AML and at that time, I was just on 19- it was a huge learning curve and I learnt many things about myself. Once I commenced chemo I was informed that I would probably never fall pregnant (proved those oncologist wrong 27 years later, but that’s another story) and at that time, freezing of eggs was not viable nor at that time a real option. The father (the same) thru this whole time was my childhood love…..and 18 years later, he (thru fate) became my 3rd husband….I am pleased to say that during the intervening years he married and had a child….but after we got back together in our late 30’s he was diagnosed with a terminal illness…and yes we did often discuss the what ifs of our decision all of those years ago, but life is random and you do what you believe is rite at the time with the information that you have at the time…Regret is wasted, what’s done is done..and you can’t look back..as nothing has ever been resolved by doing that. One must always move forward No matter what the circumstances are that leads to a woman deciding to terminate, I do not believe that she ever comes easily to that decision and there is often days, weeks, months, years of wondering and reckoning … What is paramount is the woman’s mental, emotional, physical wellbeing is held in the upmost regard and that all judgements are laid to the wayside………………….and that every woman rite regarding this issue is respected and that she has access to safe, medical induced abortions with ongoing counselling pre and post op and the understanding of all Now if only we as a society could make this Utopian idea a reality
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RHP User
13 years ago
both pro choice. its a life changing decision either way, so it needs to be considered from all angles....ethical/moral/emotional....everything. and as others have said..the father does have certain obligations to meet, before he's entitled to have an input... womans choice tho, is final in our eyes........
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RHP User
13 years ago
It is much easier these days, no hoops needed to jump though. Just a matter of making one appointment, good health insurance cover all costs, it takes 10mins and you are done. Quoting 'Shinasbabe27' What saddens and maddens me, is that even in the year 2013 – us women still have to jump thru hoops and justify our decisions in order to obtain safe abortions even in this country – don’t get me started, because this is one topic I can debate for hours. My body My choice – and I’m not saying that my decision excludes the father…not at all..but its my body so I dictate what happens to it. My story is full of irony I have terminated not once but twice – the second time within approx. 8 months of the first – I was 18 the first time and just about to start to college with ambitions of going onto med school. I was on the pill, I had been educated and was responsible for my body and took all necessary precautions. I fell pregnant..WTF ? Accusations flew that I had forgotten to take the pill – no not all…so we put that one down to being damn unlucky – discussion were held with both the father and both my parents but in all honesty I had at that time (in my head) planned my life out accordingly and children never were part of the picture, so yes I made the ultimate decision to terminate. Despite how I strongly felt, do not think for a moment that this is an easy decision even if you are so adamant (as I was that you are doing the rite thing) there are doubts and misgivings and a lots of “should I, shouldn’t I? - but thank god I had options and was offered, safe and legal abortion with unlimited counselling and support afterwards including the full support of my family. Approx. 8 months later it happened again – exactly the same scenario…WTF? But this time there was a reason and this was more than likely the cause of my first pregnancy (I had at that stage develop AML and this was rendering the contraception pill at the time as ineffective. It was thru having a blood test to confirm the pregnancy in order to have another termination that my AML was discovered). One I was diagnosed with AML – well the termination was going to go ahead no matter what as any subsequent treatment for my AML would more than likely result in a spontaneous abortion anyway The second time though was harder…..even though I knew I was doing the rite thing for me especially now with the battle of the AML looming, did not make it any easier…I questioned many issues then…regarding the second pregnancy and the AML and at that time, I was just on 19- it was a huge learning curve and I learnt many things about myself. Once I commenced chemo I was informed that I would probably never fall pregnant (proved those oncologist wrong 27 years later, but that’s another story) and at that time, freezing of eggs was not viable nor at that time a real option. The father (the same) thru this whole time was my childhood love…..and 18 years later, he (thru fate) became my 3rd husband….I am pleased to say that during the intervening years he married and had a child….but after we got back together in our late 30’s he was diagnosed with a terminal illness…and yes we did often discuss the what ifs of our decision all of those years ago, but life is random and you do what you believe is rite at the time with the information that you have at the time…Regret is wasted, what’s done is done..and you can’t look back..as nothing has ever been resolved by doing that. One must always move forward No matter what the circumstances are that leads to a woman deciding to terminate, I do not believe that she ever comes easily to that decision and there is often days, weeks, months, years of wondering and reckoning … What is paramount is the woman’s mental, emotional, physical wellbeing is held in the upmost regard and that all judgements are laid to the wayside………………….and that every woman rite regarding this issue is respected and that she has access to safe, medical induced abortions with ongoing counselling pre and post op and the understanding of all Now if only we as a society could make this Utopian idea a reality
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RHP User
13 years ago
Have I? No. Luckily never had to make that decision. Other than that, I think I'll sit this one out.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Absolutely , 100% pro choice and I have only a handful of very strong non swaying opinions this is one of them . I also perhaps controversially believe men should have no voice in this argument in parliament ! My body my uterus, my life , stay out of it ! ( I am usually very easy going on most world issues, happy to hear both sides etc )
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Cheekyarses
13 years ago
Yes I admit I have terminated a pregnancy.... This was 20yrs ago! It was the best option at the time for my husband n I - it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do - do ppl judge me now when I tell them - absolutely they do! But not until anyone has walked in my shoes n gone through things that I have been through can they ever judge me! Great topic!
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'buttsylicious' It is much easier these days, no hoops needed to jump though. Just a matter of making one appointment, good health insurance cover all costs, it takes 10mins and you are done. Abortion in Australia is a subject of state law rather than national law. The grounds on which abortion is permitted in Australia vary from state to state. In every state, abortion is legal to protect the life and health of the woman, though each state has a different definition. There is no law anywhere in Australia that requires the notification or consent of a woman's sexual partner. There is also no enforced waiting period for an abortion. Except in Western Australia, a minor does not require parental consent or notification and is subject to psychological testing it takes 10 minutes and your done- this comments frightens me. The actual procedure itself takes approx 10 minutes...(.depending on what method is used) but, no clinic would let you just leave when you are done (its called potential lawsuit) a min of 3 hours recovery is recommedned and also there is compulsory pre and post counselling - and you cant just go get one. You are subejcted to counselling and evaluation and a requirement is undertaken that you fully understand what you are about to do. It
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RHP User
13 years ago
...OK, I am a little taken back by the wave of apparent 'pro-choice' and the absence of 'pro-life'. I am sure people are making references to early terminations rather than late ones? The developmental stage of the foetus is of fundamental importance. I have read about 'late' terminations during which a fully formed baby has been born and then placed into a bucket of water to die. There is something crucially wrong about this practice and I am vehemently against such late terminations.I am 'both' pro-life and pro-choice.It has also been mentioned that men should play no part in any debate regarding abortion??!! This makes no sense to me - maybe you can explain further?Danny
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'Philosopherpoet' ...in my mind killing a newborn baby is morally equivalent to killing a baby inside the womb (abortion). Of course, we need to look at the development stage of the foetus first but after a certain point we should be affording the same 'personhood' rights to the foetus as we would a new born baby.I recall this notion led to outrage when a prominent university professor stated the same - that if we are ok with killing the unborn foetus then we should also be ok with killing a newborn - suggesting that both are the same in that they lack a sense of their own life and aspiration....but it is a complex issue and my view on it changes like the wind. It's too dangerous a precedent to set, and when does a foetus gain personhood? From conception? Well the problem there is that early cells have the chance of becoming monozygote twins. Does that diminish twins' personhood? Would they then be considered under law to be the same person? Should personhood be acquired when the foetus starts to take shape? What about miscarriage? Would the mother of a later stage foetus then be possibly liable for a manslaughter charge under the law? What if the foetus is a danger to the mother's life? Which "person" do you choose to attempt to save? There was a case in Ireland not long ago where a woman died due to being denied an abortion which would have saved her. What about the rights of the woman to her own body and choice of what happens to her own body? Too many what ifs. I'm afraid I couldn't support personhood for a foetus as I don't believe they are yet persons in their own right. I agree it's a very complex issue and I believe that women should not be judged for their choices to terminate or not to terminate. But I do believe it should be up to the woman to choose.
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RHP User
13 years ago
But you are right Shinas, with the waiting time, the question time (last period etc), the 'are you sure you want to do this?' (counselling), the procedure and then the recovery it does all take 4 - 5 hours. Thank you for sharing your story Shinas, It took me a while to be sure I wanted to post this, in case I was viewed as a monster. In fact, thank you to everyone, you are all really great people, I don't mind if anyone has opposing views to my own, just no judgement please. Meeka, I know, I was thinking it may not even make it up here... so far so good.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I'm pro choice always have been, and sometimes the father has no right to weigh in (I'm talking the exception not the rule) BUT for me personally I couldn't and I'd really struggle to support someone through the process. Not because I don't believe in their right but as I'm highly unlikely to fall pregnant myself it's a relatively sensitive thing for me. Before finding out that I'm fertility challenged I'd of supported any one of my friends, but having since finding this out and then being confronted with that situation I've realised that I haven't quite accepted that motherhood is not something I'm likely to experience. Hasn't changed my views on pro choice but I don't think I can be part of the support for someone else choosing to terminate. Thankfully my friend understood that for what it was- Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'Philosopherpoet' ...OK, I am a little taken back by the wave of apparent 'pro-choice' and the absence of 'pro-life'. I am sure people are making references to early terminations rather than late ones? The developmental stage of the foetus is of fundamental importance. I have read about 'late' terminations during which a fully formed baby has been born and then placed into a bucket of water to die. There is something crucially wrong about this practice and I am vehemently against such late terminations.Danny Where would that happen in the western world?? And being pro-choice does in no way advocate that practice, that is an outrage and is obviously and clearly murder. As for men not having a say in it. Sorry.... it is a woman's body and at the end of the day a man hasn't got a right to force a woman do anything one way or another. Of course in a relationship both partners need to come to an agreement and to discuss the pros and cons, the father has to be consulted. But I believe at the end of the day it a woman's decision that is final and a man has to respect that. I also agree with Delicious, no man in parliament or in any religious order has the right to tell a woman what to do in this matter. It infuriates me to see men picketing outside clinics.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I didn't mean that sound so cold. I have never had an abortion and I hope I will never have to make such a heart breaking decision. I do believe at the end of the day it is the woman's body so she does have more rights than the father.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'Meeka100' Quoting 'Philosopherpoet' ...OK, I am a little taken back by the wave of apparent 'pro-choice' and the absence of 'pro-life'. I am sure people are making references to early terminations rather than late ones? The developmental stage of the foetus is of fundamental importance. I have read about 'late' terminations during which a fully formed baby has been born and then placed into a bucket of water to die. There is something crucially wrong about this practice and I am vehemently against such late terminations.Danny Where would that happen in the western world?? And being pro-choice does in no way advocate that practice, that is an outrage and is obviously and clearly murder. As for men not having a say in it. Sorry.... it is a woman's body and at the end of the day a man hasn't got a right to force a woman do anything one way or another. Of course in a relationship both partners need to come to an agreement and to discuss the pros and cons, the father has to be consulted. But I believe at the end of the day it a woman's decision that is final and a man has to respect that. I also agree with Delicious, no man in parliament or in any religious order has the right to tell a woman what to do in this matter. It infuriates me to see men picketing outside clinics. A family member of mine witnessed a fetus being taken out and it was left in a dish - struggling to breath - horrific.....it made a last wheezing effort to breath before dying. Another instance, and for medical analysis, a vacuum was used to dismantle the fetus whilst in the womb - the procedure was conducted and a ultrasound used to observe specific aspects of it...the fetus was observed moving away (basic reflex - or innate fear - who knows) from the vacuum - it was removed limb from limb......this is the reality of 'some' late term terminations in the western world. These are not 'one off'.....my view is linked to this kind of practice and not to the early terminations.It is mentioned that it infuriates some when men are picketing outside clinics. Women in some parts of India protest about 'infanticide' when the newborn girls are terminated when born. The men there think women have no right to protest........this is insane - because clearly they have a complete right to do so. They are fighting for a fundamental right that newborn girls be treated with equal consideration as newborn boys.You think men have no right to protest? - To me there is a obvious parrallel with the above. Further to that to suggest that only females can actively discuss female issues is a little peculiar....does it follow that men can only be permitted to discuss male issues (circumcision etc)?....
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'DeliciousCplBris' Absolutely , 100% pro choice and I have only a handful of very strong non swaying opinions this is one of them . I also perhaps controversially believe men should have no voice in this argument in parliament ! My body my uterus, my life , stay out of it ! ( I am usually very easy going on most world issues, happy to hear both sides etc ) I'm curious, Delicious, given your pro-choice position, why you would be ok with a group of women having a debate and making a decision about how your right to make a decision. Is it ok for a woman to take away your choice, just because she has the same organs? It's the first time I've heard your "controversial" position, so find it interesting :)
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting PP: It has also been mentioned that men should play no part in any debate regarding abortion??!! This makes no sense to me - maybe you can explain further? Ok I can only speak from my own personal experience.... My partner was consulted on all the issues concerned and his opinion and ideas were at all times taken into consideration when this life changing decision was made.....however he was the kind of man that was comfortable in saying that as I was the one taking the precautions for contraception, as I was the one that was pregnant, as I was the one who would be more advertedly affected by having a child he would fully support the decision that I was making -as at the end of the day, it was my life that was going to affected and change dramatically, more than his was...I was 18 and I didnt want to get married and nor did he (he was 24) ....we are talking early 80's here. He saw my potential and admired and respected that and saw that I had the dedication and brains to make it thru Uni and therefore I may be able to make a difference in this world which I was passionate about.... ...and sadly motherhood was not on the agenda for me...................was my decision selfish.? ..absolutely.....................am I comfortable with that..? .too rite............I went onto become a doctor and I take comfort (if any) in the fact that I have made a difference in some peoples lives in other ways. The women that I know - some close, some mere acquaintances , who have chosen to terminate - well I 've yet to hear them say that their partners feeling, opinions were not taken into account when making their decision - many women are fortunate to have their partner come with them ( mine did) and be there for them every step of the way. In my humble opinion, that is a true mark of a man -to support, respect and not judge. But the complete bottom line (for me) is that men will be entitiled to a full voice on this subject, when, and if science ever allows them to fall pregant unexpectantly and they have to endure all the fretting that we do... and the whole roles are reversed..till then, what I decide to do with my body on ALL counts is exactly that - my body, my rites . And just out of curiosity..Pro Life/Pro choice people...whose views I respect although I do not agree with..........do you by chance practice contraception ?.where is the line drawn for you when it comes to ""Life" ??? Saskia..you are far from being a monster ..:) far from it.....(hug) ..............you do what you have to do, (did what you had to do) at the time...........for reasons known to you, for you and only you have to be justify your actions to you ( and perhaps your partner at that time) and no one else - it is no one elses business, what YOU do/did ..............and then you live your life accordingly, and judge no one until you have traveled their journey Brave post hon................:)
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RHP User
13 years ago
Just bloody logical !!!
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RHP User
13 years ago
That's because we agree! LOL.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Have I had one .. YES .. but then .. I have also worked in a clinic for 17 months and this was my daily job ... counseling, assisting, maintaining healthy recovery and education .. NEVER judging anyone .. Definitely PRO CHOICE .. 17 months of listening to the reasons why .. and in some cases seeing the hurt and bruises and listening to the abusive partners .. it in my opinion will ALWAYS be the woman's choice .. As for the protesters outside the clinics .. thank god for us having a back door and a fire hose ..... water cannons - the protesters dont last long ..
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'Shinasbabe27' Quoting PP: It has also been mentioned that men should play no part in any debate regarding abortion??!! This makes no sense to me - maybe you can explain further? Ok I can only speak from my own personal experience.... My partner was consulted on all the issues concerned and his opinion and ideas were at all times taken into consideration when this life changing decision was made.....however he was the kind of man that was comfortable in saying that as I was the one taking the precautions for contraception, as I was the one that was pregnant, as I was the one who would be more advertedly affected by having a child he would fully support the decision that I was making -as at the end of the day, it was my life that was going to affected and change dramatically, more than his was...I was 18 and I didnt want to get married and nor did he (he was 24) ....we are talking early 80's here. He saw my potential and admired and respected that and saw that I had the dedication and brains to make it thru Uni and therefore I may be able to make a difference in this world which I was passionate about.... ...and sadly motherhood was not on the agenda for me...................was my decision selfish.? ..absolutely.....................am I comfortable with that..? .too rite............I went onto become a doctor and I take comfort (if any) in the fact that I have made a difference in some peoples lives in other ways. The women that I know - some close, some mere acquaintances , who have chosen to terminate - well I 've yet to hear them say that their partners feeling, opinions were not taken into account when making their decision - many women are fortunate to have their partner come with them ( mine did) and be there for them every step of the way. In my humble opinion, that is a true mark of a man -to support, respect and not judge. But the complete bottom line (for me) is that men will be entitiled to a full voice on this subject, when, and if science ever allows them to fall pregant unexpectantly and they have to endure all the fretting that we do... and the whole roles are reversed..till then, what I decide to do with my body on ALL counts is exactly that - my body, my rites . And just out of curiosity..Pro Life/Pro choice people...whose views I respect although I do not agree with..........do you by chance practice contraception ?.where is the line drawn for you when it comes to ""Life" ??? Saskia..you are far from being a monster ..:) far from it.....(hug) ..............you do what you have to do, (did what you had to do) at the time...........for reasons known to you, for you and only you have to be justify your actions to you ( and perhaps your partner at that time) and no one else - it is no one elses business, what YOU do/did ..............and then you live your life accordingly, and judge no one until you have traveled their journey Brave post hon................:) You make some good points there ;-)It is one of those topics that will polarise people...always has been....Danny
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RHP User
13 years ago
I guess what Del is trying to say, is that a man will never be in the position to make a truly informed choice when it comes to the decision of carrying or terminating a child. Sure they can love a child and bring it up and so on, but he is not in the position of having to carry it for nine months (which I am sure wouldn't be easy if you didn't feel ready to have a child.) or in a majority of cases take care of the child should the relationship break down, which is highly probable given the pregnancy is in debate. Women's issues can be very complex and should be left to women to sort out, only a woman can know how an unwanted pregnancy can affect her psychologically and physically. Bloody hell, I've known of several women who get 'morning sickness' day and night for months on end, I am pretty sure they would be devastated if they found themselves to be pregnant again. Contraception is not always 100% either, on finding myself pregnant again a couple of years later (and having the child) it was discovered that I too had a condition where my body was not absorbing the pill, I was able to go on the implant, but that had large implications on our sex life, the injection left me with no libido whatsoever and terrible skin which both led to mild depression, so finding a contraceptive that's right for me was not an easy road.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Seriously? Clearly you have never read anything from Germaine Greer, or any feminist ideologies. I suppose why would you. Lol. Well, it is a fairly common belief that men use a woman's reproductive organs as a way of controlling woman and limiting her choices. This goes from religious teachings about contraception to male governments policies on termination. It is believed that if a man's life was irrevocably changed by having a child, that the man was the main carer, that the man had to limit his career or give it up all together and this was enforced by law. Well then there would be no argument then, he would have a choice of whether he wanted that for himself or not. And terminations would be legal. Would the policy on terminations be different if governments were mainly made up of women?? I think it would be. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
I don't often post controversial statements here as I sometimes get very limited time to log back on to back up what I said....and by the time I do the debate has fizzled out and I just end up looking like a twat :)In my opinion firstly circumsion is a infant issue as well as a male issue. This will be done to my baby, to the infant my body just spent 9 months nourishing,, growing , giving life to ....... to the child I WANTED and love. Cut him with a knife and I'll cut you :) That is not a just a male issue, it is living breathing human being. That baby belongs to me, no woman should ever belong to a man . I have at least a right to voice or protest on this. Asking that he not be sliced open so he can make an informed decision when he is 18, Can not be compared to the complexities of abortion. How can men understand the turmoil of an unwanted pregnancy? How can they understand the option of your life or a child's life, of carrying a rapist child, of carrying a child of a big drunken mistake, of giving over the next 18 years of your life to raise a child when you are 14 .........Men have the option to walk away, at any time., to give support, than take it back. To give love, then to walk away. to pledge financial help, then change their minds... Having a baby changes so much, not just you body. The isolation, the financial strain, the aftermath of PPD ........ would you be willing to give up your exciting new career for an accidental pregnancy with a one night stand ?Same sort of argument I give men when they sprout on about no surgery for breast lifts etc, stay natural ......If your balls got stretch marks, ugly big purple ones and dropped 3 inches with each child you have, I'm pretty sure you might want them tucked back to where they were once number 4 popped out :) ..............Your body doesn't change with babies, how can you know what that is like when it does ???Men can want a baby, men can be wonderful fathers, but in the end they can not have a say in my opinion ( a say that has any legal weight) on if all abortions should be illegal. My political comment was aimed at Mr Abbott. I do think that most intelligent Australian female women are better based to make abortion laws. I think religion should stay out of this entirely in parliament.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'DeliciousCplBris' I don't often post controversial statements here as I sometimes get very limited time to log back on to back up what I said....and by the time I do the debate has fizzled out and I just end up looking like a twat :)In my opinion firstly circumsion is a infant issue as well as a male issue. This will be done to my baby, to the infant my body just spent 9 months nourishing,, growing , giving life to ....... to the child I WANTED and love. Cut him with a knife and I'll cut you :) That is not a just a male issue, it is living breathing human being. That baby belongs to me, no woman should ever belong to a man . I have at least a right to voice or protest on this. Asking that he not be sliced open so he can make an informed decision when he is 18, Can not be compared to the complexities of abortion. How can men understand the turmoil of an unwanted pregnancy? How can they understand the option of your life or a child's life, of carrying a rapist child, of carrying a child of a big drunken mistake, of giving over the next 18 years of your life to raise a child when you are 14 .........Men have the option to walk away, at any time., to give support, than take it back. To give love, then to walk away. to pledge financial help, then change their minds... Having a baby changes so much, not just you body. The isolation, the financial strain, the aftermath of PPD ........ would you be willing to give up your exciting new career for an accidental pregnancy with a one night stand ?Same sort of argument I give men when they sprout on about no surgery for breast lifts etc, stay natural ......If your balls got stretch marks, ugly big purple ones and dropped 3 inches with each child you have, I'm pretty sure you might want them tucked back to where they were once number 4 popped out :) ..............Your body doesn't change with babies, how can you know what that is like when it does ???Men can want a baby, men can be wonderful fathers, but in the end they can not have a say in my opinion ( a say that has any legal weight) on if all abortions should be illegal. My political comment was aimed at Mr Abbott. I do think that most intelligent Australian female women are better based to make abortion laws. I think religion should stay out of this entirely in parliament. You make very well reasoned points there. I agree.
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RHP User
13 years ago
But now really, I am asking the males. Each time you have sexual intercourse with a woman with or without condoms anything can happen, women can fall pregnant, you can make a women pregnant and sorry it’s not alone the women’s fault two did the fucking. So say we keep all the babies and what then? We change the law so that the responsibility falls to both men and women for making an unwanted child equally? I mean wouldn’t this be fair? You just had sex with a woman, one you don’t feel anything for, but now she is pregnant and because it is your child also you are to look after the child 50% this means the care of this child, f you can’t argue with this it will be the law. Again, juts imagine, all men out there you have to look after this child 50% of the time, until it is able to work and move out of home, this means you have to change everything in your life, its not only up to the mother its up to you to share the daily upbringing of this child of yours. Your job or private space your hobbies, now you have a child to look after. No questions ask that’s the law now. I mean you are a father now, aren’t you? I would say bring this up and the whole issue of abortion would change. I tell u what when all the men out there would have to share custody with every unwanted child they ever produced, it would change a lot of thinking in the men’s view of the issue. But as long as it is only the problem of us women many men will not change their thinking on abortion or any issue on single mothers. Also we have already so many unwanted beings in this world, which are looked at with contempt, I say even the unborn can feel it is not wanted. That’s my thought on it all. I have two sons and had not to make a decision on abortion, but I know what it feels like to loose a child I had a miscarriage between my boys.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I agree totally with your comments, and I fail to see how they are controversial really. It just makes perfect sense to me. :) - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
I may have failed the articulation test. I understand clearly why you wouldn't want a male dominated Parliament or authority to make your choices for you. But I don't understand why you'd be OK with a group of women making that decision for you. Women in politics can be as religiously motivated, conservative, and domineering as men - less likely, but possible. Hello Amanda Vanstone ;) I'd have thought it was an issue that the state, male or female dominated, had no place to decide. Saying only women MPs should vote on it is still conceding to state authority over your body, but hoping you might be able to get a reasonable outcome. Maybe I need to read some more (but why would I, eh? ;)) (And this is nothing to do with father's involvement in the process of an individual decision...) - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'Philosopherpoet' A family member of mine witnessed a fetus being taken out and it was left in a dish - struggling to breath - horrific.....it made a last wheezing effort to breath before dying. A foetus is not able to breathe until around 34/35 weeks gestation. That's pretty big, and I'm struggling to believe it (he/she) would have been put in a dish. Not in any Western Country, anyway. Unfortunately, like you, I have heard of infanticide. Pictures of newborn girls left on the roadside in China are burned into my retina forever.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I'm gonna get slayed for this. If a woman wants the child but the man doesn't, why should the man not have his own "choice" of being able to walk away without any consequences? I'm a proud single dad with 50/50 custody, which was my choice. But what about the guy who has a random 1 nighter and the woman gets pregnant? Shouldn't he have some choice in the matter? This is hypothetical, I agree he should have worn a theoretical condom but that's not the matter at hand. No offence or disrespect intended so please don't take this out of context.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Pro Choice
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RHP User
13 years ago
Yes there are conservative women who are pro-life and I would prefer that no one dictate to me on this issue. However, as men I don't believe you will ever be truly be able to understand and men are free to walk away if they choose too. Therefore based on that I do not want men making decisions for me on this issue. You have no right! I have hard time understanding why you find this so difficult to understand?? Surely it is perfectly reasonable? And I can tell you a lot of women feel that way.... This is in no way controversial. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
It's so difficult this whole issue. I agree, If a man says he doesn't want the child and states this upfront he has the right to walk away. Why should he be penalized? Women need to be responsible for their actions too. But what happens If it is an accident and she is pro-life? That she can't bare to have an abortion? It's her right to have the baby. Unfortunately, the good men will be unable to walk away totally. It sucks that is for sure. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
I believe it is up to the couple or woman to decide this. Not a government. Same for euthanasia. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
I have had 2 terminations & will support anyone who chooses to take that course of action. In both cases I was in my late teens, not emotionally capable of raising children. Sure I have a very supportive family (so much so that various Aunts helped in some way to make the termonations possible) but it was always my choice. The first instance I didnt know which was the father and both males involved wanted nothing to do with me let alone the decision. The second instance was an abusive relationship and not someone I needed in my life permanently. When it comes to random one nighters and an accident occuring I wouldnt want a permanent tie to that person for the rest of my life. And (in my opinion) thats what a child can be, a permanent hold by that person (whether the female or male raises the child) to the other persons life. Do I regret my choice to terminate? No. Would I do it again? Yes. Kisses Focus- Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
I totally get why you don't want a caucus of men to withhold your rights.to make choices about your body. It's not startling or controversial, to me. What I don't understand is Delicious' apparent willingness to forfeit those same rights to a group of women. But we agree, it isn't the place of the state to withhold those (and other) personal rights, and in an ideal world couples should make decisions together but where that fails its is, ultimately, her body and choice. I'll leave it be B)- Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
My girlfriend at the time was on the pill and fell pregnant.She decided as she was 18 that she wanted a career and now was the time for her to be a mother.That was her choice and I fully supporter her.About 3 years later we had a really nasty breakup and have no communication with each other.I have to admit I sometimes wonder what that child would have grown up to be but deep down I know that the right decision was made.Realistically it comes down to each individual situation and the only people that can make the decision are the people involved.If that means terminating the pregnancy then thats their decision
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RHP User
13 years ago
For a very level headed reply.
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RHP User
13 years ago
It is the choice of the lady it is her body,my own terminated because at that time it was the correct choice for her,my wife & myself fully supported her all the way.
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RHP User
13 years ago
No it's not a simple 10 minute wham bamb thank you mam. I was knocked out cold and had mine.....I had the love and compassion fortunately of my mum and sister being with me before and afterwards. It was horrific and something noone chooses to do lightly. My husband had taken his life and I had to make a choice......incredibly sad and not one I would ever want another woman to have to make
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RHP User
13 years ago
losing a child is a huge thing to deal with.... its something you never never forget...... we lost our first at 5 months, and my then wife had struggles from that point on... making a decision to terminate a pregnancy is no less stressful or any easier to forget....you second guess yourself and every time you see a young'n in anothers arms...theres a few silent questions you ask, and a series of regrets that ring in your head....'what if' etc... we held our daughters hand as she went thru the shit storm of emotions that accompany an abortion...she went through just about every emotion and regret possible....but it was absolutely the right thing for her to do.... her battle with life is a daily one, and to add an unplanned child to the equation wouldve overwhelmed her completely, her decision was the only one that couldve been made, especially in her fairly uncommon circumstances....
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RHP User
13 years ago
what a touchy subject. I would have to say i'm on the fence with this one. You see, i never really areed with abortion. I though it was morally and ethically wrong. But now i think about it i realise i hadn't taken the chance to hear the stories of people from both sides of the argument. At the tender age of 21, i found myself pregnant to my then partner. I was very ill and i had two very clear options: A - go through with the pregnancy with an 80% chance that either i or my baby (or both of us) die or B - terminate and live my life, recover from my illness so i can go on to healthily have children later in life Prior to making a decision my GP advised me that most doctors wont perform an abortion past 14 weeks unless the child has already died before delivery. I was 13weeks when i had the termination 11 weeks when i found out i was pregnant. Clearly i chose to live my life, recover from the illness that was threatening my life back then and try for children later in life. Having said all that. At the end of the day it comes down to the individual/s involved (i only add the s for plural incase the male wants to be involved in the decision making) and their personal situation. I know adoption is always an option, but it isn't for everyone. Further more imagine being a rape victim who got pregnant by your attacker....would you really want to carry that child to term and raise it or adopt it out? I know i wouldn't be able to, i would have this contant feeling of being dirty and violated the entire duration of pregnancy.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Man there is almost no answer for this topic. I can already feel the 'reply with quotes' coming before i even start LOL. I'd rather be disliked for having an honest opinion than liked for being false. A way to start is to lay all the variables out on the table - and seeing there are so many that won't be possible as this would be a 20000 word article so i will have to cut it down. Extreme short answer: Morally and ethically i don't think any human has the right to make the decision but obviously as god isn't here to take control of the situation we as humans are the only ones that can make it. In real life circumstances i can understand how termination (with good intentions) is really the best option. Not pleasant but basically the only option. I think the topic comes down to sexual responsibility. Personally if you do take sexual responsiblity you won't be in the termination situation to begin with. I'm not pro or anti termination but find the pro choice option taken by some women can be a handy excuse to justify having a loose sex life. It allows women to adopt a selfish approach by saying its my body my choice so excuses sexual behaviour and lack of responsiblitiy. It also applies to males and there are some who have had multiple kids to multiple women. There are some exceptions for example if a woman has been raped and falls pregnant or the condom breaks. Obviously people in these situations are faced with a massive decision.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'Torturedcliche' I'm gonna get slayed for this. If a woman wants the child but the man doesn't, why should the man not have his own "choice" of being able to walk away without any consequences? I'm a proud single dad with 50/50 custody, which was my choice. But what about the guy who has a random 1 nighter and the woman gets pregnant? Shouldn't he have some choice in the matter? This is hypothetical, I agree he should have worn a theoretical condom but that's not the matter at hand. No offence or disrespect intended so please don't take this out of context. I understand where youre coming from TC, but the reality is that the woman is the one who has to sacrifice her body for 9 months, take on health risks associated with pregnancy, the medical risks that can happen during childbirth, the after effects of weight issues, post natal depression, the lifestyle changes, etc. The decision to terminate or not should be left to the individual who will be physically having to experience the above, and, fair or unfair, as a man you dont get that choice. I just dont think you can fight for gender equality on a topic that is gender exclusive by nature.
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RHP User
13 years ago
When I was about 18 I fell pregnant and terminated the pregnancy as soon as I found out, my reasons I wasnt in a very stable relationship and the other reason, I was 18 and I had my whole life a head of me and I didnt want to have the responsibilty of raising a baby, I wasnt ready, I was still trying to figure out who I was. I was on the pill back then too, so was pretty shocked when I fell pregnant. Exactly 10 years later, strangely enough I fell pregnant again (on the pill still), this time I was felt I was ready and decided to go through with it. My girl is 9 years old this month, it has been a testing and hard 9 years. I was a single parent from the start as my boyfriend decided half way thru the pregnancy he didnt want to be around, we are friends now though as is part of my daughter's life. Looking back over the past 9 years, I am so grateful I made that decision when I did when I was 18. I dont think I could have done and achieved what I have at such a young age. I am proud of my little girl and we are a good team. Oh and I dont take the pill anymore, I use the Mirena IUD!!! Best move ever!!!!!!! LOL If you are not ready to have a child, its a good to know you have choices. It's better to bring a wanted baby into the world, then a baby you have to have because you got no choice.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Just because a fetus or newborn may not have a sense of existence, that it's not a good and valid reason to kill them. They are alive, even inside the womb, they feel when the mother is sad, angry, happy or in peace, They jump inside reacting to external factors. It can be controversial when in later stages the life of the mother and fetus is compromise due to complications. The difficult choice of who is to remain alive the mother or child. I believe that not even the parents have the right to make that decision on the unborn baby who is unable to speak and defend him/her self.I agree that it is a very difficult decision to be made, but but somebody should be defending the right to live of that innocent baby.And we as adults should be taking responsibility for our actions and be more careful instead of covering up our mistakes.Giving people the license to kill innocent babies? I rather give a death sentence to the irresponsible parents than to agree in terminating a life of an innocent creature that can't defend her/himself
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RHP User
13 years ago
:/ way to keep things civil
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'Enigmaoflove' Man there is almost no answer for this topic. I can already feel the 'reply with quotes' coming before i even start LOL. I'd rather be disliked for having an honest opinion than liked for being false. A way to start is to lay all the variables out on the table - and seeing there are so many that won't be possible as this would be a 20000 word article so i will have to cut it down. Extreme short answer: Morally and ethically i don't think any human has the right to make the decision but obviously as god isn't here to take control of the situation we as humans are the only ones that can make it. In real life circumstances i can understand how termination (with good intentions) is really the best option. Not pleasant but basically the only option. I think the topic comes down to sexual responsibility. Personally if you do take sexual responsiblity you won't be in the termination situation to begin with. I'm not pro or anti termination but find the pro choice option taken by some women can be a handy excuse to justify having a loose sex life. It allows women to adopt a selfish approach by saying its my body my choice so excuses sexual behaviour and lack of responsiblitiy. It also applies to males and there are some who have had multiple kids to multiple women. There are some exceptions for example if a woman has been raped and falls pregnant or the condom breaks. Obviously people in these situations are faced with a massive decision. I actually agree with you. I have teenagers and there have been many times I hear School girls say "I'm going to have another abortion" Oops "we were off our guts" or "ahh I'm effing pregnant again" and it's sad when abortion has become a form of contraception to these kids, instead of taking responsibility to ensure "as best as possible" that they won't a) catch an sti and b) fall pregnant.I know a lot of kids have had adverse childhoods and there are many reasons that may have led to their circumstances, behaviour and decisions, but I have really found an almost flippant attitude regarding abortion....well in the "cough splutter" brilliant Catholic School System my kids went through anyway.
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RHP User
13 years ago
views come in many disguises... Philosopher poet worries about pain and aesthetics... Many others see it as a choice to be made about lifestyle and appropriate timing... Others see it as a womans prerogative to take men out of the decision sort of like womens lib on steroids.... far too many people see it purely in terms of reproductive rights... I find it interesting we are quite happy to force other species into extinction and eat just about anything, yet we are shocked and call for the death of any animal that dare to rear its head at us... Then we are shocked that one of us would choose to terminate the life of another human????? I think we should get over ourselves a bit... Mike
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RHP User
13 years ago
Agree. That is why education is so important. I have been with men in their late 40's who still refuse to wear a condom even though they know I am not using any other contraceptives. Really poor form... Casual with his sexual health too. :-/
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ppiffle3934
13 years ago
Ok first time post here, bare with me :)I watched a friend of mine and her partner many years ago through the range of emotions of finding out they were having a much wanted and planned for baby. At around 24 weeks she felt something was terribly wrong and being in her late 30's had the battery of tests. They were told the baby had a severe form of downs syndrome, called mosaic. Both were devastated by the news as anyone would be. the decision was made to terminate the pregnancy. I watched as suddenly my friend went from being happily expecting a baby to becoming distant and cold with any further references to the baby as "it". Her partner struggling silently in the background as he tried to not only support her through what was to come but also deal with his own emotions and feelings. At such a late stage she would have to actually go through a labour and delivery process. Her focus was on lets get it over and done with and get this" thing" out of me.All her strength and focus was on herself and I watched as her partner withdrew more and more. The pain he was going through evident to all who saw him, except his partner so it seemed. Both my friend and I are nurses. She was admitted to the hospital I worked at, thankfully, not on the maternity ward. I popped in after my shift ended to see how they were both coping. My friend still had her armour on, whereas her partner wore his heart on his sleeve. He looked lost and exhausted. He had quietly sat by her side all day, probably 7-8 hrs by the time I had arrived. An IV was delivering a metered dose of a drug that would induce labour. Knowing it was still awhile before anything would happen I suggested he go home for a quick shower and bite to eat, whilst I sat with my friend. He gratefully accepted. Neither had family here after migrating from England a couple of years before. I knew my friend must be hurting, but ever the practical and strong woman, she continued to show that element of herself. I knew it was her way of coping. We chatted, she still referred to the baby as "it". I asked her what plans had the two of them made for afterwards. I knew they would've been offered options. She said she didn't care what they did with it, they could incinerate it for all she cared. She knew ppl probably viewed her as a "murderer" her words, not mine. I talked to her as I would hope if the situation was reversed a good friend would talk to me. I asked her to consider burying the baby, as I was fairly sure that if she just let the staff "dispose" of "it" she would regret her decision later on. I sat with her until she was wheeled off to the labour ward. I sat with her partner for awhile whilst he waited. I then went home to my family, thankful it was not I who had to make this difficult decision, but respectful of the decision my friend had made. She phoned me later that night to tell me it was done. She also told me how her partner and her had named the baby ( sex and name remaining private to just those two) and how they had decided to go ahead with a private burial.I guess to me, at her stage of the pregnancy it was no longer a foetus, but a baby.At the other end of the scale, I've seen termination used as a form of contraception amongst a certain patriarcal (sorry my spelling eludes me tonight)refugee group that I was working with. The husbands refused to allow their wives to take the pill and definitely refused to use condoms.Obviously every circumstance and event is different for every person. My stance, I believe every woman has the right to decide, I'm just grateful I never had to make that decision.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'DeliciousCplBris'Absolutely , 100% pro choice and I have only a handful of very strong non swaying opinions this is one of them . I also perhaps controversially believe men should have no voice in this argument in parliament ! My body my uterus, my life , stay out of it ! ( I am usually very easy going on most world issues, happy to hear both sides etc ) Well said! I couldn’t agree more with your comments. However, I am also rather controversially of the belief that (regardless of the nature of the relationship) the father’s input has no bearing whatsoever in the decision making process. I believe the only reason he needs to be aware of being pregnant is if you intend to give birth.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I really don't have a major issue either way....However, I found this whole "my body, my choice" attitude pretty small minded. I feel that it's an attitude that is quite detrimental to the argument as a whole; it trivialises the complexity of the debate. Yeah it may be your body....but your decision has the potential to impact on numerous other people. Therefore it's not necessarily just your choice. Obviously there are circumstances where women are on their own, and it that case it is their choice. However, that choice is theirs merely because there are no other external factors for them to consider.So please, whether your pro-life or pro-choice, come up with an argument that isn't so superficial.
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RHP User
13 years ago
there is noone elses input required Her Body her choice that has my 100% support Father of 2 and love it , but if my daughter asked me what she should do i would help her every single step of the way and support her choice whatever that may be. If she was young , very young and found herself pregnant and wanted my opinion Then i would give it to her and support her with her choices.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Lolita was very candid about her beliefs, and I'd like to acknowledge her bravery. Especially since I think it would have been clear to her that not many people on this thread would agree with her views. And ppiffle: What a journey for all involved. I love how insightful your post was, hope to see many more!
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RHP User
13 years ago
If the guy stays out of obligation "for the baby", that's considered unhealthy, if the guy leaves because he's not ready or whatever reason- he's a no good bastard, we really can't "win". I'm not saying a guy should be the final arbitrator but surely a decent dad will change his lifestyle, juggle his employment with his parenting duties etc- JUST LIKE A WOMAN DOES!!!. I've knocked back unbelievable job opportunities, I've given up every weekend and 1 night a week for 4 years, I was also there when my daughter was born despite finding out 4 weeks earlier that my ex-wife was cheating with my so called best mate. All I'm saying is that some guys actually do give a shit and deserve to have their thoughts and circumstances into consideration too. Again no offence intended, I just think this topic is far from black and white and people need to consider the "grey" areas too.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Everyone has different views and that's fair enough. To be honest I thought there would be a lot more pro-choice opinions. It certainly is a personal and emotional topic.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I think the current laws are fair. I would be concerned if they allowed abortions later through the pregnancy.
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beebs
13 years ago
Realy well put Otari Quoting 'Otori' Quoting 'Philosopherpoet' ...in my mind killing a newborn baby is morally equivalent to killing ...... It's too dangerous a precedent to set, and when does a foetus gain personhood? From conception? Well the problem there is that early cells have the chance of becoming monozygote twins. Does that diminish twins' personhood? Would they then be considered under law to be the same person? Should personhood be acquired when the foetus starts to take shape? What about miscarriage? Would the mother of a later stage foetus then be possibly liable for a manslaughter charge under the law? What if the foetus is a danger to the mother's life? Which "person" do you choose to attempt to save? There was a case in Ireland not long ago where a woman died due to being denied an abortion which would have saved her. What about the rights of the woman to her own body and choice of what happens to her own body? Too many what ifs. I'm afraid I couldn't support personhood for a foetus as I don't believe they are yet persons in their own right. I agree it's a very complex issue and I believe that women should not be judged for their choices to terminate or not to terminate. But I do believe it should be up to the woman to choose.Don't wish to seem flippant in a serious topic but Monty Python were only taking the piss a little when singing "Every Sperm is Sacred". Where does the line get drawn?
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ppiffle3934
13 years ago
Ms D thanx for your kind comments.To the subject of foetus in a dish, well sadly, I can say with certainty this unfortunately did happen in this country. The friend I was talking about obviously had a midwife who did not agree with her terminating her pregnancy. To add to the trauma of this her foetus/baby was presented to her in a kidney dish when she asked to see it. She was traumatised enough as it was but this uncalled for and callous act was horrendous. I know the experience was one she has never forgotten.
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ppiffle3934
13 years ago
Ms D thanx for your kind comments.To the subject of foetus in a dish, well sadly, I can say with certainty this unfortunately did happen in this country. The friend I was talking about obviously had a midwife who did not agree with her terminating her pregnancy. To add to the trauma of this her foetus/baby was presented to her in a kidney dish when she asked to see it. She was traumatised enough as it was but this uncalled for and callous act was horrendous. I know the experience was one she has never forgotten.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'perthguy_87' However, I found this whole "my body, my choice" attitude pretty small minded. I feel that it's an attitude that is quite detrimental to the argument as a whole; it trivialises the complexity of the debate. does it ?...how exactly ??? Yeah it may be your body... thats rite its MY body ..are you not selective about your body - what you do to it, with it, what you put into it etc ?? .but your decision has the potential to impact on numerous other people. who please ? - the father ? So please, whether your pro-life or pro-choice, come up with an argument that isn't so superficial. Could you explain this comment further ??
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RHP User
13 years ago
When I was 16 I ran away to another state to get away from an abusive home life then found out I was pregnant. When I told the father, he hung up. I knew I wouldn't be allowed to stay where I was if they found out and I knew I couldn't go home. All I knew was I had to fix the problem. So I aborted it, all alone with no one. To this day it I don't regret it, I know it was the right thing to do but it's also the one and only thing in my life I'd go back and change if I could... I think it is the woman's choice but I also think she has to have her eyes wide open when she takes the fathers opinion into account! ......My neighbour has 6 kids after the 5th she was already to go back to work and get her life back when she fell pregnant again. She was booked in for her abortion when the father begged her to keep it (he was childless) he told her if she gave birth he'd take the child and she'd could see it if she chose too. You guessed it! he took the child one night gave him back and walked out the door and has never been seen again!! ......So yeah give the father a say but make the decision yourself ladies cause when it all comes down to it. It is your life!
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RHP User
13 years ago
When I posted this I thought, it's either going to go one of two ways, no one will reply (or very few) and it will fall flat on it's face and fizzle out, or it'll end in a shit fight and go out with a bang... There have been some really difficult stories told on here with bravery and honesty and some strong opinions voiced, thank you. Great to see though that we can respect others rights to their opinion.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Completely and utterly unconditional. If a foetus can't survive without its 'mother' (ie. outside her body) then it's not a person with any rights. Also, I read something that gave me pause for thought the other day - "some mothers have abortions, but women who have abortions are not necessarily mothers."The absolute last thing this world needs is more unwanted children.
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RHP User
13 years ago
My body my choice simply...father doesn't wanna step up, fine I don't need him in mine or the kids life
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'perthguy_87' I really don't have a major issue either way....However, I found this whole "my body, my choice" attitude pretty small minded. I feel that it's an attitude that is quite detrimental to the argument as a whole; it trivialises the complexity of the debate. Yeah it may be your body....but your decision has the potential to impact on numerous other people. Therefore it's not necessarily just your choice. Obviously there are circumstances where women are on their own, and it that case it is their choice. However, that choice is theirs merely because there are no other external factors for them to consider.So please, whether your pro-life or pro-choice, come up with an argument that isn't so superficial. Sure it affects others, but it doesn't affect them all equally. There IS no comparison with the impact of carrying a child through to term and the effect it has on the woman's life. And that's without even taking into account what happens if she decides to be a part of raising it, as society typically demands...
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On_Safari
13 years ago
That with all the medical marvels they can perform these days we still haven't figured out how to take a living, healthy, developing foetus and implant it into an infertile woman and find a way to get her body to accept the "foreigner" that could bring those couples the joy they seek. That'd be a real miracle don't you think? I'm pro but don't recommend it as a method of birth control.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I think "your body your choice" for sure, surely it's an extremely personal and sensitive subject, and any person's body, as well as life choices, is theres and theres only, cheerz.
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RHP User
13 years ago
For all of these men who are upset by having terminations forced upon them? Quoting 'neptune_drift' Quoting 'perthguy_87' I really don't have a major issue either way....However, I found this whole "my body, my choice" attitude pretty small minded. I feel that it's an attitude that is quite detrimental to the argument as a whole; it trivialises the complexity of the debate. Yeah it may be your body....but your decision has the potential to impact on numerous other people. Therefore it's not necessarily just your choice. Obviously there are circumstances where women are on their own, and it that case it is their choice. However, that choice is theirs merely because there are no other external factors for them to consider.So please, whether your pro-life or pro-choice, come up with an argument that isn't so superficial. Sure it affects others, but it doesn't affect them all equally. There IS no comparison with the impact of carrying a child through to term and the effect it has on the woman's life. And that's without even taking into account what happens if she decides to be a part of raising it, as society typically demands... I will check it out, I have just not come across any yet, as Neptune has said, the impact of an unwanted pregnancy upon a woman far outweighs that of the impact on a man who didn't choose this path.
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RHP User
13 years ago
so why post it here? Why create anger and arguements?
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RHP User
13 years ago
Yes I agree. Men also sacrifice or make choices based on what is best for their families. It probably sounds a little like man bashing some of the responses but overall I don't think it is meant to be. It's just that women feel passionately about their rights over their bodies. I wouldn't deny the father his rights and if he was wanting to really help bring up the child this would definitley have a huge impact in any decision I made. Every situation is different and we are oversimplify the argument of course but there are just too many variables to discuss them all. Kudos to all the gorgeous good men and to their lovely children. Hope to find one like you some day. :D- Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
That is a horrendous story. Your poor friend and her husband. What an awful thing to go through. Life changing devastation I am sure for both of them and their families. As for putting the baby in a dish... That nurse should have been reported or a complaint made. Unfortunately their are people that behave this way because they have their own agenda. A friend of mine was reduced to tears and totally inadequacy after the birth of her child because she was unable to breastfeed. However one of the nurses kept insisting she try and was telling her she wasn't a real woman because she was unable to feed her own child & the baby was going to be hugely disadvantaged because of her. Again, if I was their and had heard that that nurse would not know what hit her. :( Some people have no empathy whatsoever. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
This is divisive! but...your body-your choice in my view! saying that abortion affects a lot of people maybe right,,,but is only ONE that has to go with the pregnancy!
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'On_Safari' That with all the medical marvels they can perform these days we still haven't figured out how to take a living, healthy, developing foetus and implant it into an infertile woman and find a way to get her body to accept the "foreigner" that could bring those couples the joy they seek. That'd be a real miracle don't you think? After reading this thread - and I actually think it's a pretty civil, empathetic, and informative discussion - I was thinking exactly the same thing.But, then, there are millions of 3rd world children who would love to be implanted into a 1st world family (but that's a whole different thread!).
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RHP User
13 years ago
certain circumstance i can understand, rape, extream disabilitys of both parents and unborn babies. but other then that, if you are not prepared to have a baby, then use protection, make sure you are covered.There is no excuse for unplanned pregnancys these days. I can not accept allowing having an unborn baby ripped appart limb by limb simply because it is unwanted. There are other options like adoption, there are plenty of people out there who would do anything to have a baby of their own.
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RHP User
13 years ago
As a guy that has been faced with this situation in the past, it's not an easy decision to make. So I'm not going to bore anyone about this chapter, and just say I'm pro choice. It's a very personal decision to make, and each couple must decide for themselves. For me, it's one of the hardest decisions I've had to face. So many feelings versus the logical. The ultimate tug of war.
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madotara69
13 years ago
There is plenty of reasons why a termination could be a choice for a decision, and it certainly is a difficult place to be for any one that feels it is the decision. It hurts to think for the women that carry that decision with them for ever. It hurts to feel they are alone with those feelings. It hurts to feel they regret the decision. It hurts to feel for the women who have been raped, abused,naive,molested. It hurts to feel for the women that have a Dr advise the decision. And with all that hurt I, as a man support those feelings for the woman.So If I the man or father, feel that hurt, how the hell can any of you look me in the eyes and say I have nothing to do with a decision concerning one of our children. I would die with a smile for my children and wife, if it was a decision.getting pissed up at the pub and ending up the duff. Now maybe it is a thing where such a decision should be as difficult as it is, in this country. A man will work until he is too buckled up to continue, for his wife and children. So no it is not just the woman's decision. Don't let a few cowards be the right and wrong for something so special. And don't forget that a man in love has feelings that you could never understand ladies. Take it easy please, most of us blokes just want to love you.Mado xx If anyone finds this to be offensive, or inappropriate. Then were in trouble
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RHP User
13 years ago
i beleive its a females choice..but i also feel that having a child should be a mutual agreement..to many people are having children because they look at the money side of things.i have three child to two mothers over a span of 5 years,,the first after we discused children didnt want more, so had steriliation done it failed and she had twins,i couldnt make her abort,it wasnt my say but i stood by her.8 months later she was screwing around and dump me. .she sued for malpractise and got large payout but i still liable to pay child support to her.in total she has 6 kids to 4 guys. second mother fell pregnant not long after dating .i was at birth then next day while holding my son told i wasnt needed in their lives and if i want to be a family man find someone else to do it with .so here i am 6 years later .not had quality time with my daughters in 5 years ,not seen my son in 3 and yet i still have to pay their way..i cant tell someone what to do if pregnant ,but dont tell the father he's not welcome and then expect to get the child support from them..
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RHP User
13 years ago
This really is a complex topic despite the binary pro-choice/pro-life labels.For the record Mrs C and I are both very pro-choice, but we are also both anti-abortion. Our 4 kids are thankful, especially the 3 of them that were unplanned.Neptune mentions no need for more unwanted children. A significant drop in crime in the US in the late 80's and into the 90s can be directly linked back to the Roe Vs Wade decision in the 70's that made abortion legal. Most crime is committed by young men, and it seems a lot of it by young men who were unwanted. 18yrs after these unwanted children started being aborted the crime rate started dropping.We've gone the opposite way here and plied plenty of women who would be better of childless with a big cash bonus to pop them out. Great for the big screen TV business, but perhaps not so good for the crime rate 18yrs later.Mr C
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RHP User
13 years ago
...that being 'pro-choice' is not being 'pro-abortion'. It's simply saying that it's not your or the state's decision to make.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I HAVE A SEVENTEEN YEAR OLD DUAGHTER THAT I LOVE SO MUCH AND WAS MARRIED TO HER MUM HER MUM FEEL PREGNANT BEFORE WE WERE MARRIED I GUESS WE GOT MARREIED FOR THE WRONG REASONS WE SPIT 5 YEARS LATER OFCOURSE I FOUND MY SELF SINGLE AND ABLE TO TRY A KEEP MY DUAGHTER IN MY LIFE I STILL DO . A COUPLE OF YEARS OF BEING SINGLE NOT REALY DOING MUCH GOOD IN THE GETTING LIAD DEPARTMENT I GUESS I WAS ONE TRACKED MINED IN KEEPING MY DUAGHTER IN MY LIFE ANYWAY I WAS ONE WOMEN WHICH THE SUBJCET WE GOT TOGETHER SHE WAS SEPERATED WELL THAT S THE STORY I GOT AND THINGS WERE OK BUT THEN STARTED GOING WIERD SHE VISITED HUBY I BIT A DISAPEARD ALOT WE WERNT GETTING ALONG I WAS MOVING OUT AND ON SHE HIT ME WITH IM PREG WE USED PRECTION ALOTA ND SHE WAS ON CHILD BIRTH AT ONE PIONT ANYWAY WE SAT DOWN CAME TO A AGREEMENT OF SHES GOING BACK TO HUBBY AND I WAS LEAVING SHE HAD A APPIONTMENT AND WAS GETTING A ABORTION , FOUND OUT SOMETIME LATTER SHE NEVER WENT THROUGH AND A HAD A SON I BELIEVE AINT MINE NOW SOME MORE TIME LATER SHE WHICH IE ELEVEN YEARS SHE WANTS ME TO MEET AND ARRANGE A DNA TEST FOR PROOF OF HIM BEING MINE SO SHE CAN GET CHILD WELFARE FOR HIM AND HES BEEN PUT ON TRACK THAT IM THE DAD BEFORE ANY REAL EVIDENTS OF HIM BEING MINE PLUS THE AGREEMENT WE HAD WHICH TO ME HE DOESNT EXCIST EVEN IF I WAS THE FATHER NO IM NOT ON BIRTH CERT AND IM THAT SURE HES NOT MINE ID PLACE A 50 GRAN BET ON IT . MY VIEWS ON THE SUBJECT OF OBORTION IS ITS SAD AND LIFE IS PRECIOUS BUT WHATS SADER IS A ELLEVEN YEAR OLD BOY GOING UP TO A GUY THAT HIS MUM HAS TOLD HIM THAT HES YOUR FARTHER AND LEFT OUT THAT WE BOTH AGREED TO A BORTION AND IM LEFT GOING HEY MATE WHAT AM I MENT TO SAY TO YOU REALY IF IT WAS DIFFERENT AND EVERY ONE WAS HONEST ABOUT WHAT GO ON BETWEEN EACH OTHER THESE PROBLEMS WOULDNT EXSIST , OK YEAH MABE IT WAS HARD FOR HER BUT NOW ITS HARDER FOR HER SHES NOT SURE ON WHEATHER IM THE FARTHER OR NOT AS SHE WOULDNT BE BEATING AROUND THE BUSH LIKE SHE HAS . SO ABORTION WOULD OF STOPED A LIFE AND ALL THE OTHER PROBS THAT SHES GOING THROUGH NOW .IM SURE THE LITTLE BOY IS A GREAT KID AND DESERVES A DAD BUT NOT ONE THATS BEEN MADE UP OR ONE THAT DECIED WITH HIS MUM TO ABORT HIM . AND MY DUAGHTER WHOM IS SEVENTEEN AT THE MOMENT WAS ANBANDED BY HER MUM ABOUT 6MTN AFTER I LEFT THE WOMEN I APPARENTLY GOT PREG AND I BECAME A SINGLE DAD FOR MY DUAGHTER FOR ABOUT FOUR YEARS ON MY OWN AND I NO HOW PRECCIOUS KIDS ARE TO PERENTS THAT WANT KIDS SO ABORTIONIS A OPPTION FOR THOSE AT ARE IN SITUARTION THEY DIDNT WANT TO BE IN OR WERNT FINACIAL STABLE ENOUGH TO HAVE A CHILD . ME IVE GOT OTHER SUSPITIONS ON THE WOMEN THAT WAS MENT AND AGREED TO HAVE A ABORTION BUT WILL LEAVE IT THERE...
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On_Safari
13 years ago
Quoting 'Messolonghi' Quoting 'On_Safari' That with all the medical marvels they can perform these days we still haven't figured out how to take a living, healthy, developing foetus and implant it into an infertile woman and find a way to get her body to accept the "foreigner" that could bring those couples the joy they seek. That'd be a real miracle don't you think? After reading this thread - and I actually think it's a pretty civil, empathetic, and informative discussion - I was thinking exactly the same thing. But, then, there are millions of 3rd world children who would love to be implanted into a 1st world family (but that's a whole different thread!). I always seem to have other people's kids here, most happy and balanced, some troubled, some very troubled, is scary that Child Abuse seems to be one of Australia's National pass times....."my name is Amy, I am but 3, both my eyes are swollen and I cannot see. I must be ugly, I must be bad, why else would Daddy get so very mad. I can't remember how the other verses go but the last was wheere her mother and father bashed her to death and the pain please make it stop. My name is Amy, I am but three, that's what happened the night my Daddy murdered me. I am very pro-abortion when it comes to families who breed generational violence and they come from ALL financial frameworks in society NOT just the lower income. If you can't provide or care for or are at a moment where it is not practical to have a baby, DON'T!! I agree with you on the 3rd world kids Messolonghi. It seems only actors and the mega rich can BUY a child out of poverty over a family who can LOVE them out of it. In this country as well and sometimes you have to take a life to save a life.....
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On_Safari
13 years ago
Quoting 'Messolonghi' Quoting 'On_Safari' That with all the medical marvels they can perform these days we still haven't figured out how to take a living, healthy, developing foetus and implant it into an infertile woman and find a way to get her body to accept the "foreigner" that could bring those couples the joy they seek. That'd be a real miracle don't you think? After reading this thread - and I actually think it's a pretty civil, empathetic, and informative discussion - I was thinking exactly the same thing. But, then, there are millions of 3rd world children who would love to be implanted into a 1st world family (but that's a whole different thread!). I always seem to have other people's kids here, most happy and balanced, some troubled, some very troubled, is scary that Child Abuse seems to be one of Australia's National pass times....."my name is Amy, I am but 3, both my eyes are swollen and I cannot see. I must be ugly, I must be bad, why else would Daddy get so very mad. I can't remember how the other verses go but the last was wheere her mother and father bashed her to death and the pain please make it stop. My name is Amy, I am but three, that's what happened the night my Daddy murdered me. I am very pro-abortion when it comes to families who breed generational violence and they come from ALL financial frameworks in society NOT just the lower income. If you can't provide or care for or are at a moment where it is not practical to have a baby, DON'T!! I agree with you on the 3rd world kids Messolonghi. It seems only actors and the mega rich can BUY a child out of poverty over a family who can LOVE them out of it. In this country as well and sometimes you have to take a life to save a life.....
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RHP User
13 years ago
In fact we should all give ourselves a big pat on the back... or a fiddle in the nether region if you prefer.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'neptune_drift'...that being 'pro-choice' is not being 'pro-abortion'. It's simply saying that it's not your or the state's decision to make. .....If this were facebook, I'd 'like' this comment. It's a fundamental part of the argument which is often overlooked... Mr Kinkster.
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RHP User
13 years ago
While i believe a woman has the right to make the choices she believes will be the right ones for her. Im all for a woman terminating a pregnancy if, its a result of rape, the fetus has something seriously wrong with it, or in the case where she may be disabled herself and obviously would not be able to take care of the infant.What i am against is women who time and time again gtet pregnant then use abortion as a form of contraception. I worked in a hospital for 12 years and witnessed this time and time again. I had over a 2 year period miscarried 3 times, and almost despaired of ever becoming a mum. In this time period, one of the nursing sisters had 3 abortions, and in her words was 'just sending an 'oops' on a boat ride to werribee.Thats pretty disheartening to hear when you desperately want a child.About 28 years ago when i was 21, I made the tough decision to have an abortion because my fetus had not developed arms or legs.I could not imagine bring a child like that into the world. I wanted my child to have quality of life. I agreed to the termination, and to this day, I would not be able to tell you how they brought it on, but after a couple of hours i delivered a baby girl. At 21 wks gestation she was quite big (11/2 lb). As there was a "do not resuccitate order in place, she was placed in a kidney bowl and placed on the sink, to slowly slip away.While she was tiny, and had no limbs everything else about her was perfect. She may have been 19 weeks early, but that little girl fought for 3 hours before she passed.Unfortunately back then, you didnt hold your child, nor name them, or bury them.Abortion is necessary sometimes, but it was a hard decision for me, and i often wonder if i had to make that choice again, what i would do.Thankfully after many miscarraiges i became a mum, and theres not a day goes im not grateful for them. (turds that they are!)
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RHP User
13 years ago
This subject touches upon so many levels of living… As a common knowledge, the argument about morality must be followed up with a clear demonstration as to why we feel we should be moral. The basis for morality is the concept of freedom. Freedom is the ability to give your own law to your will. Our will is influenced by something outside of ourselves. We use reason to determine our own law for ourselves. In other words, we are free… But in other words it is a learning process to know self. Yet morality is embedded into the common law, thus amongst it is designed to involve, to check reality and thus ask for an offer of our input; But in other words it is a learning process to beat us into obedience. We have travelled all this way to come to be here... facing the eyes of reality in deliberation. I know of few that chose to keep the baby and turmoil they went through in the process. To this date they have no regrets yet their initial steps were daunting and limiting. It had taken a lot of supporting energy from family and friends. But openness prevailed through learning steps of the mistake and some mistakes can have a very good outcome. This particular reality blew me away… a simple question really. If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion? If you said YES, you just killed Ludwig van Beethoven. We juggle life based on circumstances and draw assumptions based on perceived judgments… (Assumptions should be outlawed in all levels of society)… We live through good and bad times… all engagements and frolics… What we take for granted as our right to choose determines the destiny of life we influence through our actions… and it will have consequences… be they easy or be they hard… I say this because I value life, its creation and the whole mechanism of living… on the same note I say this because I have always been able to see optimism in all surprises. Frustrating aspect of this situation is in the short window of opportunity to make a decision for the resolve. Either way the decision is made, it will be hard and will require a large degree of determination and support to stay on course… so, which of the hard to choose? I am pro to support a woman any which way she would choose. But I would help reason every detail of her decision first, just for her sake long and short term.
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RHP User
13 years ago
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RHP User
13 years ago
There are so many different stories out there and each has merit. To support the 'my body, my choice' argument, I'll tell you mine. I was told I could never have children (after a bad termination when I was young), my husband was thrilled as he didn't want any. I fell pregnant, he was supportive but I miscarried. We broke up for 6 months then got back together and I was pregnant immediately, he spent the first 3 months begging me to terminate, then sulked through the whole pregnancy. Repeated again for my second miracle. I asked him to get the 'snip' then but he refused. The third time I fell pregnant he gave me an ultimatum, him or the baby. I was devastated but agreed as I loved our family, but insisted he got the snip that very week, which he did. Let's just say that counselling session was an epic one. I regret the decision still, I should have made my own choice. Especially now that the prick walked anyway... For the record I am very pro choice. And agree it shouldn't be used as a contraception. (Guilty as charged)
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RHP User
13 years ago
I've read this discussion with interest and want to echo a big thank you to those who have shared their own personal stories. I am also impressed by how respectfully people have disagreed. I am pro-choice.
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RHP User
13 years ago
You mention a foetus cannot breathe until 35 weeks! That is simply incorrect. Foetuses have been known to survive from 24 weeks.....of course very unwell but they can still breathe......of course most will not be termed viable and given the help but some have done so.....
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RHP User
13 years ago
Everyday I meet people that should have been terminated... Kidding. Pro choice, let people decide what's best- Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
13 years ago
The lungs are not able to function independently until 35 - 36 weeks, hence when you see premmies before this time they are hooked up to cannula tubes for oxygen intake. The lungs are full of fluid antil birth, when baby takes its first breath.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Possibly I may be more qualified to speak on this subject than the majority as I have nursed neonates for 40 yrs. (newborn) It is my understanding that abortion is legal now and reasonably well accessed through free clinics. The latest gestational age for termination, unless the mother's life is threatened, is 20 weeks gestation. Viability of foetal life has unfortunately (my opinion only) been reduced to 22-23 weeks, this does not mean that they will survive at this extremely early delivery time. 22 week prems are unable to breathe on their own and will give up after a short attempt to breathe, so I have to wonder how old was the foetus that you (or someone you knew) struggled for breath. Sometimes in the relating people do exagerate stories, particularly emotional ones such as this. AS for being pro abortion, yes all women should be in control of the decision making when it comes to their own health, well being and life's choices. Lots of very well stated opinions on here ladies, hope I have not offended any of you.
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